How much does it cost to have our military on the move, planes in the air, ships, and all, in the Middle East "readiness" patt

Thanks, James, for the Moyers link. I haven't had time to digest the piece but it reminded me of another connection that some have drawn. KPFA had a piece on Democracy Now noting that Henry Kissinger and Zbignew Brezinski were, after their stints in Washington, hired as lobbyists for Unocal. Unocal was trying to work with the Taliban, as they began to consolidate power after the Soviets left, to get a major oil pipeline through Afghanistan. Funny how it seems that oil seems to be involved with everything we do in the Middle East. Funny if it wasn't so sad. You can hear the story at http://www.webactive.com/pacifica/exile/dn20011031.html.
Bob Alei <BAlei@SpamBusters.mediaone.net>
Fresno, CA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 22:00:05 (PST)

Evan, bro, thank you so much for the belly laugh and my continuing glow of amusement at that story!
Bob Alei <BAleiHi@SpamBeGone.mediaone.net>
Fresno, CA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 21:34:45 (PST)

One of my favorite march memories: Marcher on the hill above camp: "We looooooooove you." Marcher working in camp: "Then help me take out the gaaaaarbaaaage."
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@takethisout yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 18:48:38 (PST)

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Roger that, Shabtai. "Freedom of Speech" also turns on the right to 'not listen'. I'm remembering how we all eventually came to react to that distant, haunting, wail [the thirty-third time we'd heard it, anyway] from unseen marchers across Peace City: "We L-O-V-E YOU!!!!!" And, as I've always considered myself part of the 'loyal opposition' in this group, I'm certainly concerned by the charge today that my anonymous input is the equivalent of terrorism.

My guess is that I've been winging through these pages quite a bit longer than you, but I know there are other marchers who have adopted similar ways of contending with my contentious input. My intention has always been to stimulate and provoke further discussion, but it is an undeniable fact that there have been times when I have gone too far and sacrificed any semblance of objectivity, allowing my own emotions to vent, instead. There have been many times, as well of course, when I have carefully practiced Bj's philosophy, not responding to the "bad behavior" I'd brought on myself with my provocations.

I do think, however, that you're mistaken about the degree of openess within the GPM towards dissenting perspectives. Shouting down, ignoring, avoiding, and talking an issue to death have been hallmarks of our group's approach to strategizing and understanding, since it's real inception in Barstow. The concept of 'effective group process' may have been understood by some marchers from the outset, but they were always greatly outnumbered, as the ever-present tedium and frustration of those endless City meetings demonstrated, time after time. We were never good at listening to one another.

The good news was that we all shared a common goal and grew to love, or at least accept, one another. The bad news was that our failure to correct the problem meant we were doomed to being a fractious group of individuals mostly 'doing our own things'. We came to celebrate that chaotic aspect of ourselves, and to elevate it to a sort of magical status that somehow might explain how we managed to stay together and actually reach DC on schedule, but it was also the most likely reason that we had 10,000 with us in Lafayette Park, on November 15th, rather than a couple million.

Anyway, thanks for the forgiveness you have advanced me. I know you're sincere in offering it, and I accept it. This will also be my final anonymous communication to you and my other marcher brothers and sisters. Self doubts and a general sense of weariness, which has set in with this new war and world we find ourselves facing, have co-conspired to convince me that I don't want to participate in this way, anymore. I think I'll just go to Tahiti.

Peace, love, hope, and grace to you all.

[By the way, Shabtai ... I did get a chuckle and a chill out of that 'peaceful approach' link you posted. And, just FYI ... I had SPAM and eggs for breakfast. Like war and violence, I know it's really bad for me, but, "Allah Be Praised", I do love that stuff! ;^>

Major Tom, and a few others...
Headed for the showers from Kandahar, Afghanistan - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 15:07:37 (PST)

Shabtai, your words always have a positive effect, especially if they're posted with all those cool effects - how do you do that, bro? :)
Ben Atherton Zeman <benaz@send.me.spam.I'm.a.gentile.com>
Framingham, MA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 13:17:27 (PST)

...ignore bad behavior so as not to reinforce it. -- Bj

I agree. I think the best way to deal with anonymous posters is to ignore them. Don't respond, and don't even comment on them. If they want to participate let them at least post a valid email address.

Before I begin my policy of quarantine, I do want to say a few words to TNH, Teach, Major Tom, and anyone else who feels compelled to post anonymously:

Advantage: to have a personal knowledge of one who does not have a reciprocal knowledge.
You have the advantage of me; I don't remember ever to have had the honor." -- Sheridan

It just isn't fair. It is disrespectful. It is condescending & insulting.

There's no need to be anonymous, even if you have unpopular opinions. Consider this: my outlook is definitely in the minority here. I'm far to the political right of most other GPMers. But I don't feel threatened or unwelcome here. My fellow GPMers may dislike my opinions, but they don't dislike me. They like/love me, and I like/love them, no matter how misguided their politics. <grin>

So come on out of the closet. We'll be nice. We won't hurt you. We just want the discussion to be on equal ground. Just start posting using your real name. You don't even need to acknowledge your nom de plume. Consider yourself already forgiven.

I hope my words have had some positive effect. If any anonymous posters want to communicate with me privately, by all means, please do so.

TNH, Teach, Major Tom, this is my first and last post directed to you. From this point forward, I won't read any more anonymous posts. When you have the decency to address me on equal terms, I'll be glad to read what you have to say. Until then, I look forward to not hearing from you.
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.no spam please, I'm Jewish.com>
Ann Arbor, MI USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 12:33:59 (PST)

If you're interested in the "ethics" of our present war on terrorism, check out the Bill Moyers piece at http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1030-07.htm. He discusses the many ways our "representatives" are cashing in big time on this golden opportunity. All wrapped in red white and blue of course. And Nancy, the moments we spend loving rather than worrying are not a "cop out". Its the most important job we have right now.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 09:19:40 (PST)

Frank, too true. I do all I can to NOT participate in modern medicine but I sure appreciate it when my own brand of magic fails me. And I never understood the lack of focus on developing systems to deal with real threats.
I was struck by a piece I saw during the 6 hours total tv time I've watched about the 9-11 attacks. It was a feature about a tiny company that produces what has become the standard is security 'wands'-the hand held metal detecters. One day, they were a garage operation, the next day, they were changing the labels on their 'stud finder' product to reflect its security applications. The government had bought them out completely. It was a cute little American dream story and the owner, thankfully was not a greedy bastard. In fact, a hefty portion of each product's price went to the Twin Towers Fund.

My question is, why does it take something like this for us to suddenly realize what we need to be reactive to terror?
Bj
USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 07:01:48 (PST)

It strikes me that I ought to take my own advice when talking about preparing for terrorism. In effect, that is what the negative anon posters are...our own little version of terrorism.
It certainly works on me!
I get unsettled, spend too much time thinking about what upsets me, and then avoid participating.
Well, as my stepmother used to say..."Fi on you!" I will not be dissuaded from my home here! If I were her, I'd suggest that I simply ignore bad behavior so as not to reinforce it. So. Unless an anon poster has something particularly cogent to share, I'm simply not going to go there.
Wow. I feel so mature. Thanks Evelyn! (the step-mom who passed long ago.)

Marek, you are sooo right, both about the alerts and the fact that anyone outside the US would know of what overall significance our celebrities carry. And how sad is it that the news industry has become a who's who of white guys with bad ties?
Bj
USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 06:55:41 (PST)

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Yeah. I agree, too, that these 'heightened alert' notifications by Ashcroft & Friends could be intended to keep us off balance. They are unnerving and they definitely increase my personal anxiety level, as I'm sure they do for most everyone else. If the warnings really are just intended to keep US citizen's support behind our military's actions though, it's a seriously flawed tactic because it will soon wear everybody out, emotionally, and end up achieving that 'little boy who cried Wolf!' status. Ultimately, of course, the alerts will likely again prove true, as there is no doubt that bin Laden has had plenty of time, followers, and money to put other attack plans in place, all intended to shake our confidence and damage our social infrastructure.

The most disturbing news for me personally, since September 11th, was the announcement today that a 61 year old female healthcare worker at a hospital in New York, having evidently had no connection whatsoever to the other cases found thus far, is in an ICU, on a respirator, and probably about to die of inhalation anthrax. One thing I became very aware of on the march, as I spoke to churches and community groups along the way, was the incredibly small number of 'burn beds' we actually had in the US, at that time. (These beds are on hospital units that are staffed with doctors and nurses who have been specifically trained to treat burned patients and, while those wackos at the War College were yakking about 'winnable nuclear wars', the US had just 1200 burn beds for the entire country -- and that limitation did not even take into consideration the fact that most of the country's hospitals would likely be totaled in a nuclear attack, anyway.)

If bioterrorists now turn their attacks on the healthcare system itself, services could collapse in much the same way as in a nuclear exchange. Doctors and nurses are easy to ignore while we're healthy, but they become vital when we're seriously ill, which is precisely why the Geneva Convention protects them in times of war. Terrorists, as we already know, are not bound by the Convention's protections and rules for ethical treatment of non-combatants.

So, that's my cheery topic for today's worries. What's your's? Anybody else out there getting as much relief and the occasional chuckle out of "The Daily Show", on the cable TV station "Comedy Central"? That show and Bill Maher's program, "Politically Incorrect" are helping me keep things in perspective these days. As with many ICU nurses, dark humor always helps me out in times of stress and crisis. Peace and hugs to you all. (8^>?

Frank Holmgren <peacegeek@hotmail.com>
Minneapolis, MN USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 23:31:38 (PST)

Interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76* Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct? Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention. Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it? B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would. Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today? B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire. Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [intégrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists? B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war? Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today. B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries. * There are at least two editions of this magazine; with the perhaps sole exception of the Library of Congress, the version sent to the United States is shorter than the French version, andthe Brzezinski interview was not included in the shorter version.
Bob Alei
USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 23:00:49 (PST)

Hi folks. Thanks to all for the ongoing dialog. I visit daily and appreciate most everything I read. I must admit, though, I get a little tired of folks who have to belittle others to get their points across. Mostly I'm speaking of anaonymous posters, but others do it sometimes too. I see no point in spending a lot of energy on that though. I do, however, want to share a rather lengthy post that I found interesting. If you hate those (sorry Ben and others) just skip the next one.
Bob Alei <BAleiHi@mediaone.net>
Fresno, CA USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 23:00:13 (PST)

marek- i am with you as far as being suspicious about the "heightened alert" warnnings. certainly a convenient way to keep americans on edge, and fearful, without having to show any evidence what-so-ever. my husband thinks i'm overly paranoid, but he is a more trusting soul than i, at least when it comes to expecting people in power to do the right thing. i do get bothered by the hostile posts i have seen here, more often than not by anon posters, and i dont know if there is an answer to that, but i dont think censoring/limiting/ id'ing them is it. just like on the walk, there are many of us, and that means many different ideas, and many ways of expressing them. that said, it does bother me to see the posts that seem to be attacks on others. i lurk and read here just about daily, but dont have much to contribute. the truth is i am avoiding thinking about this "war" as much as i can. my baby is 8 weeks old now, and she takes up most of my time and energy. i am loving being a mom, and i far prefer it to worrying about world events. it makes me feel like a cop-out, but its where i am at right now. peace to all nancy/kiwi
nancy <nemmiller@yahoo.com>
santa fe, nm USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 21:05:12 (PST)

Johnie, All great detectives have to make a mistake here and there, it helps to highlight their grander acheivements. : ) Must admit I am againstlimiting posts so...guess my vote is in. Although I do understand others concern for over this. - BJ Sending good vibes your way! (No matter how uncool it may be!) - Thank you Nora. - Julia, You go girl! (PS I'm getting off my duff and you should be receiving those CD's from me Soon). - James I agree, what will be the difference between the war on drugs and the war on terrorism? Don't know that we'll see one! Will our war on terrorism include attacking those terrorists groups in countrys that we support? One must wonder. (See, that's a thought provoking question. They differ greatly from verbal attacks. It's less abusive and keeps the focus on the topic and not how the words are said!) I must admit, I frequently avoid the annon posts. Usually they are full of attacks, refuse to participate in the real art of dialog, and from people who strength is to make others feel week. I've been witness to abuse, I no longer choose to participate. But God do I love a great debate! but annon people don't debate, they attack and hide! Humm Sounds like our foreign policy. Oh and by the way! Didn't the U.S. help the Taliban to establish itself? Just wondering! (OK I'm not wondering! I know our role in this! I just think we shouldn't be so pious and self-rightous.) - And just my two sense here. It's part jopke, but I mean it! To my way of thinking, the Anthrax folks are most likely american, because only Americans would think that Brokaw, Rather, and Jennings were important! And is anyone else wondering if these "Hightened Alert" messages from our government might just be a clever way to keeps us supporting this "war"? Certainly it suggests that we can't stop now or we'll be in bigger trouble. Just wondering.
Marek <Marekp@juno - uhmmm - .com>
Buffalo, USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 20:42:11 (PST)

Oy vey, I guess that must be my computer's time, since so do Shabtai's words read PST, oh well, so much for the detective in me. As for the plane that just flew by at 2:20, I lived here for about 12 years, sensitive to sounds, and I've never heard those sounds, I think it was a new invisible type of flying machine. Time to requestion again or perhaps I'm on to something???
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@oyvey-aol.com>
Ashland, OR USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 15:14:23 (PST)

Is Kandahar, Afghanistan situated in the location of Pacific Standard Time as Major Tom's quips seem to emanate from?
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@oyvey-aol.com>
Ashland, OR USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 15:09:25 (PST)

You know what, "Major Tom", it's not a control issue, it's a respect issue. When I post here, I always do so with my real name (and I used my pre-marriage name of Julia Gosztyla on the GPM, so now you REALLY know who I am, if indeed you were on the GPM at all), my real city, and my real email address (barring the little chunk to fool the spam-bots). That means if you have a gripe, quarrel, or question of me, or if you want to say "right on" or anything else, you can email me directly to say it. I'm open to active, honest dialogue. What you are doing is thumbing your nose at this community. I sincerely doubt that you are posting from Afghanistan, and there's no way for any of us to communicate with you except here. Get real. Post an email address, one that actually works and is read by a human being. Or I feel free to grant your comments very little credence. I shouldn't have let your comments from this morning upset me, I should have ignored them, since you didn't have the courage to come out with who you are. Which is a loss for all of us. I'm open to other opinions and different views, IF I am in an honest dialogue with another person, and perhaps you do have a few valid points. I'm not going to see them. I'm skipping anonymous posts from here on out.
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@yesiworkat_microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 14:02:03 (PST)

I appreciate Ghandi even more after having read this:

I have been a student of Ghandi's life and teachings for many years and I would not call him a pacifist. For one, he always conceded that nonviolence could only succeed if a majority of the people you oppose were essentially good. -- Evan Conroy

So many topics, and I have at least one opinion about each topic! I'll try and be (uncharacteristically) brief:

Regarding anonymous postings: This requires more discussion. My first posting here was anonymous, and I might not be posting here now if I hadn't had that option. Still, I think having a verified *real* email address would be a good idea.
Regarding wars against bad guys: Hey, it worked against the Nazis. True, many innocent German civilians died, but what's the alternative? <Sarcasm>Should we offer Anger Management Counseling to the Taliban?</Sarcasm>
James said (to Major Tom), "welcome to the permanent war on terrorism." Well, what's wrong with that? What about a permanent war on pedophilia? Why should we ever stop fighting evil with every ethical means at our disposal?
Best wishes, BJ!

For an interesting take on a "peaceful" approach to Osama, click here.
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.no spam please, I'm Jewish.com>
Ann Arbor, MI USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 13:16:02 (PST)

AND, you are right about the permanent war on terrorism. The very phrase, war on terrorism, would make me laugh if it weren't so pathetic.
Terrorism, by it's very nature, cannot be 'stopped'by strategizing a war. We can be smarter and better world citizens in order to reduce the motivations for terrorism but we can no more predict every form of terror in order to safeguard against it than we can predict and protect against new viruses replicating on the planet. Or hackers.
There will always be someone looking for a way to express their anger and fear. Every code can be broken and every security system can be circumnavigated.
What we CAN do is be as thoughtful as we can about the way we live our lives and develop sane ways to be as safe, while developing the coping mechanisms to deal with the aftermath of things we cannot predict.

Think about it. If there was a way to end terrorism, once and for all, don't you think we'd have done so...SOMEwhere in human history?
Bj
USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 12:23:12 (PST)

Hey James-sweetie. When I read your message, I had this adorable image of the two of us holding hands, skipping along the information highway. I'm honored to do anything with you!

I agree about forcing id's within this community and I'm not sure how we'd be able to assertain anyone's true identity, what with all the fake email addresses available. I guess the only option we have is to not take the bait. I'm not sorry I did in this case but...
Bj
USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 12:11:05 (PST)

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Nora, thank you. I understand you, and Thich Nhat Hanh. Peace is what we seek, while struggling to keep our heads above the surface in Life's tempestuous cauldron of pain, fear, suffering, and disillusionment.

Kim, you ask good questions. The trick is to not stop asking them, once you think you may have found the answers.

Bj, your story about Liz Marek has never graced my ear before. Thank you for sharing it as you have. I'll keep you in mind for that counseling session, but I'm going to wait until you've got a few more years of therapeutic experience under your belt.

Julia, like most of us, you need to work on those "control issues". There's more, I'm sure you know, to "freedom of expression" than hearing only what we want to hear. The Taliban just executed Mr. Haq and a number of other potential leaders who didn't care to view the world through their visciously controlled ideological lense. As bad as the American system might seem to its internal critics from time to time, there is always that "freedom of speech" thing built into it that allows us to express those misgivings without fear of immediate and unceremonious execution.

Deanna, you - like everyone here on this website - are capable of greater eloquence than you frequently demonstrate. It's a question of extending inward your focused investigation of the more profound images you want to express, as opposed to humming a bland refrain of platitudes and cliche`s.

From up here in the not friendly skys of Afghanistan, my view is that challenging the veracity of, or the sincerity within, the musings and expressions of others is not always mere "mockery". Useful solutions, to what may appear to be impossible problems, rarely arise from unchallenged thoughts.

Major Tom
Still circling above Kandahar, Afghanistan - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 11:44:50 (PST)

Hey BJ we posted together. Just for the record, I don't approve of limiting who posts here. Sounds too much like marcher ID checks. On the other hand, Shabtai "outed" the dude stealing our email addresses for spam: can we do the same for our anonymous visitors? I wouldn't be opposed to a warning stating that your true identity will be revealed if you post here.
j knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
lala, ca USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 10:40:19 (PST)

BJ, keep the helium handy tomorrow night. I want pictures. And Major Tom, welcome to the permanent war on terrorism. Feel safe? Get used to it, like the war on drugs. And talk to me in 10 years about "swift and permanent", assuming we still feel safe to have these talks online.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
lala, ca USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 10:34:51 (PST)

Major Tom, bless your heart. As angry as I could be about your message, I just can't muster it because you've given me a great opportunity to share something of profound importance to me, once again. For those of you who have heard this story, forgive the repitition.
I don't know if you know me, Major, but if you did, you would know that I was deeply and directly effected by Liz Marek's death. She was my very best friend and we were in the process of planning our futures as friends and business partners when she called and asked me to go with her and Bill Mack to London to see the Christmas lights. I had just helped them complete work on a documentary Liz was producing as part of Bill's performance art and the trip was a celebration for us. Because I had a lame job and a stupid excuse for not leaving it, the last thing I ever did in my beloved's life was disappoint her by calling to cancel the reservation she had made for me and by not getting on Pan Am 103. To this day, I wish I had.
When I went to Lockerbie to complete my history with Liz and to do lay-counseling for rescue workers, I learned one of the most important lessons of my entire life.
As I sat in a stairwell weeping after hours of working with other families' grief, an Anglican minister came to me. I thought he was there to comfort me, but instead, he needed to express his own fear and to tell me something he wanted me to 'go back and tell America'. So here I am, telling it for maybe the 300th time since then.
"To seek retribution would do nothing but add to the sum total of human suffering."
If the two men who are charged with killing my beloved friend are killed tomorrow, it will not be a swift and final end to anything but their lives. It will not bring Liz back to us. It will not stop terrorism and it sure as hell won't make me feel any better.
What makes me feel good is knowing that Liz lives on through my work and the way that I love everyone I can.

I understand being in pain, believe me. And I feel for you. If I knew who you were, I'd say come talk to me. It might help you release some of that anger. I know it isn't about this community or even about what you've read here regarding what you might consider fruzzy ideas of love and light. Whatever it IS about, I pray you find peace.
Bj <bjkt@innerstory_nospam.com>
Washington, DC USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 10:30:12 (PST)

I have been thinking about what "Major Tom" asked- why do I cry? I cry for more reasons than can be written or felt. I cry for the world. That perhaps sound silly although I truly do. I cry because the world collectively and continually chooses to grasp violence and destruction while so many of its people are sick, starving and dying. I cry for those who have so much hate and unhappiness in their heart that they are changed people. These people were born so sweet and precious- laughing and cuddling- so full of potential to bring joy and grace to this troubled planet. I cry for those people who have joined the ranks of those who hate and desire revenge, turning away in their pain and anger from the sensitive and forgiving people that they once were. And, yes, I cry for myself. I wake every morning with the realization that my tax dollars are going to create weapons of mass destruction. "Major Tom" I cry for people like you, who would rather mock and sneer at my pain (thereby adding to it) instead of giving me peaceful and healing ways to stop the tears. It's so damn easy for all of us to judge! I don't want to stop anonymous writings. I hope this message board continues to be a free forum. My hope is that those like Major Tom who write such angry and hate-filled posts re-read what they write and see in the mirror. And before you spew something about me looking into the mirror myself, I do and that's another reason I cry. My hope is that I move from immobile tears to loving and positive action. Nora, thank you for sharing the beauty of the words. They were and are so very welcome. Julia, I'm so happy for you! I didn't know you when you were 123 lbs although I have a very definite belief that you are FAR more beautiful now whatever your weight than you were at 18. It's so very clear by what you write that you have a simply GORGEOUS heart and spirit! I celebrate your journey to better health. Peace to all,
Deanna"Warts, Tears and All" Constable <dconstab@TakeThisPartOut_hotmail.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 10:15:53 (PST)

Major Tom, do you truely believe that we can put a "swift and permanent end to the source of our troubles"? And do it by means of such violent retaliation? History proves to us that violence and war only perpetuates itself and creates hatred. I feel sad for you for your obvious pain and grief. Please take a look at and deal with these primary feelings your experiencing instead of turning them into active anger. Nora, thanks for sharing that wonderful piece. Julia, I too would like to know more info about the people who are signing on and don't like the attack approach, however, I don't want to exclude folks or differing opinions. Congratulations on your health progress! BJ, I'm holding good thoughts for you around your job situation, and I do remember what you look like. You'll make a delightfully sweet munchkin mayor.
Kim SH <yowbap@spamsville_home.com>
Oly, WA USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 10:07:57 (PST)

Roberta,
I can't help but wonder if it's time to look into making the guestbook require an email address, city, and state. And maybe time to vet the entries to make sure they are from verifiable people, Marchers, or "family". I am so tired of the inflammatory anonymous messages that I am considering ditching this as one of my daily "must-read" pages. But of course, I want to hear what my GPM friends have to say, so I have to put up with the abuse each time I come to the page, just like everyone else.

I know this is a terrible spot for you to be in (as the decision-maker) so maybe we should have a discussion here about this issue. To me, the anonymous postings are usually just as rude as the people who stole sleeping bags. I feel like these people are inflicting violence upon us, and I bet they have a good laugh while they do it. The world has enough violence in it, and I would deeply appreciate this page not perpetuating that violence.

Nora, thanks for your response. It was moving and needed, but unfortunately, I am still feeling angry and upset about the post before yours. It's not about "white light" in my opinion, it's about JUSTICE. And not the kind of "justice" that some people think comes from a bomb dropped from the sky, either.

And on to a completely different topic, for those of you keeping track of my progress... I am down 48 lbs after 6 weeks, and I feel fantastic! Where I could barely walk 2 miles in an hour, I can now walk 3.5 miles in an hour and still feel ready for more! I'm certainly not back to my GPM form of 123 lbs (and will I ever be? I was 18 years old! LOL) but at least I feel I wouldn't embarrass myself on a Sunday afternoon walk anymore. :-)
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@yesiworkat_microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 07:55:54 (PST)

Ruby and I had a wonderful visit with the Kinczels in New York City last night, and I came to this page this morning to revel in our 'unity', to marvel at the love which abounds. It feels like I was smacked in the face, instead. I do not know who you are, Major Tom. As you see, I sign on with my name and even my home town. The only response I can muster is to paste in these beautiful words from one of my heroes, a poet and buddhist monk. I know due to formatting this will be a bit unwieldy, but it did make my heart feel softer as I read it. I hope it does your, too. REST IN PEACE by Vietnamese Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh I am a World Trade Center tower, standing tall in the clear blue sky, feeling a violent blow in my side, and I am a towering inferno of pain and suffering imploding upon myself and collapsing to the ground. May I rest in peace. I am a terrified passenger on a hijacked airplane not knowing where we are going or that I am riding on fuel tanks that will be instruments of death, and I am a worker arriving at my office not knowing that in just a moment my future will be obliterated. May I rest in peace. I am a pigeon in the plaza between the two towers eating crumbs from someone's breakfast when fire rains down on me from the skies, and I am a bed of flowers admired daily by thousands of tourists now buried under five stories of rubble. May I rest in peace. I am a firefighter sent into dark corridors of smoke and debris on a mission of mercy only to have it collapse around me, and I am a rescue worker risking my life to save lives who is very aware that I may not make it out alive. May I rest in peace. I am a survivor who has fled down the stairs and out of the building to safety who knows that nothing will ever be the same in my soul again, and I am a doctor in a hospital treating patients burned from head to toe who knows that these horrible images will remain in my mind forever. May I know peace. I am a tourist in Times Square looking up at the giant TV screens thinking I'm seeing a disaster movie as I watch the Twin Towers crash to the ground, and I am a New York woman sending e-mails to friends and family letting them know that I am safe. May I know peace. I am a piece of paper that was on someone's desk this morning and now I'm debris scattered by the wind across lower Manhattan, and I am a stone in the graveyard at Trinity Church covered with soot from the buildings that once stood proudly above me, death meeting death. May I rest in peace. I am a dog sniffing in the rubble for signs of life, doing my best to be of service, and I am a blood donor waiting in line to make a simple but very needed contribution for the victims. May I know peace. I am a resident in an apartment in downtown New York who has been forced to evacuate my home, and I am a resident in an apartment uptown who has walked 100 blocks home in a stream of other refugees. May I know peace. I am a family member who has just learned that someone I love has died, and I am a pastor who must comfort someone who has suffered a heart-breaking loss. May I know peace. I am a loyal American who feels violated and vows to stand behind any military action it takes to wipe terrorists off the face of the earth, and I am a loyal American who feels violated and worries that people who look and sound like me are all going to be blamed for this tragedy. May I know peace. I am a frightened city dweller who wonders whether I'll ever feel safe in a skyscraper again, and I am a pilot who wonders whether there will ever be a way to make the skies truly safe. May I know peace. I am the owner of a small store with five employees that has been put out of business by this tragedy, and I am an executive in a multinational corporation who is concerned about the cost of doing business in a terrorized world. May I know peace. I am a visitor to New York City who purchases postcards of the World Trade Center Twin Towers that are no more, and I am a television reporter trying to put into words the terrible things I have seen. May I know peace. I am a boy in New Jersey waiting for a father who will never come home, and I am a boy in a faraway country rejoicing in the streets of my village because someone has hurt the hated Americans. May I know peace. I am a general talking into the microphones about how we must stop the terrorist cowards who have perpetrated this heinous crime, and I am an intelligence officer trying to discern how such a thing could have happened on American soil, and I am a city official trying to find ways to alleviate the suffering of my people. May I know peace. I am a terrorist whose hatred for America knows no limit and I am willing to die to prove it, and I am a terrorist sympathizer standing with all the enemies of American capitalism and imperialism, and I am a master strategist for a terrorist group who planned this abomination. My heart is not yet capable of openness, tolerance, and loving. May I know peace. I am a citizen of the world glued to my television set, fighting back my rage and despair at these horrible events, and I am a person of faith struggling to forgive the unforgivable, praying for the consolation of those who have lost loved ones, calling upon themerciful beneficence of God/Yahweh/Allah/Spirit/Higher Power. May I know peace. I am a child of God who believes that we are all children of God and we are all part of each other. May we all know peace.
Nora <Nirmala@attglobal.net>
ny USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 07:17:35 (PST)

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Are those tears falling for the 145 million Afghani men, women, and children alike, who've been oppressed by the tiny but brutal Taliban party for the past ten years?

Are they falling for the tens of thousands of Muslim women who have been raped, murdered, and/or forced to remain illiterate and powerless [not to mention their fathers, uncles, and brothers who have died, while daring to resist in hopeless efforts to protect them] - or for the hundreds of thousands of children orphaned and abandoned to survive or die, or be drafted and brainwashed, by these fanatical Taliban "warriors" who are now struggling to fight off the growing opposition forces advancing on Kabul?

Are they falling for the 7,000 victims of the September 11th attacks, in our own country, and for the hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of friends, children, and family members directly involved with and affected by the loss of those victims?

Do your tears fall for the hundreds of thousands of unsuspecting, unarmed, most often decent and peaceloving victims [like the GPM's own Liz Marek], who have been wantonly slaughtered and maimed, in the name of high minded ideals and fanatical ideologies, shared in a world of six billion by no more than a few hundred thousand political nuts and extremists?

Or are your tears only for terrorists, murderers, and psychopaths - [and, of course, maybe just a couple for yourself and for your confusion, and for the social voice you really wish you had, but do not]?

Naturally, there's no need to answer these "questions". You can just write me off as some "fascist" or "war-monger" who refuses to see the "truth", as you "know" it to be. They're really just statements about what I think you're overlooking in your assessment of the world we're living in.

One way to answer, if you really wanted to, would be to just reiterate the usual glib and cliche`ed litany about sending out "good vibes" and "white light", or fighting the conspiracy of "corporate greed" and "power hungry capitalism", etc.

A better approach, though, might be to try to understand, with some real depth and compassion, the pain and fear and suffering and anger that drives the surviving victims of terrorism - which, today, in one way or another means "all of us" - to want to put a swift and permanent end to the source of our troubles.

Major Tom
Somewhere, high above Kandahar, Afghanistan - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 03:50:24 (PST)

Darn Bj! That's what I was planning on being! Now it looks like I'll have to dress up like Shirley Temple, YET AGAIN!! My tap shoes are sooooo worn! Short women rule! (The question of course is "Rule what???" :) One of my friends talked about dressing like an envelope with talcum power trailing out from underneath... funny in a strange way. What an insane world this is. I was driving on Friday and listened to NPR talking about cluster bombs that are now being used. I had to pull over yet again and cry. This nightmare is lasting too long. I want to wake up.
Deanna "You think You're Short" Constable <dconstab@TakeThisPartOut_hotmail.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 14:44:54 (PST)

Oooh. Thanks guys! That is exactly what I would have hoped for. And Deana, as for what I look like...it might help to know I'm playing the Munchkin Mayor for Halloween!
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 13:44:30 (PST)

I'm with you, BJ. I'm picturing you at the job, content, serene, a powerful force of love and harmony, respected and appreciated by coworkers and clients alike, secure and happy.
marc polonsky <marcwordsmith@sfo.DOES THIS REALLY HELP; THEY'VE ALREADY "HARVESTED" ME. com>
El Cerrito , CA USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 12:27:33 (PST)

Hey there Bj! I am picturing you (even though I don't know what you look like :) in your dream job, smiling from such happiness that you just can't contain it! May it come to pass! If we all worked at our dream job- how much happier and productive would our country be... Hello to all on this board!
Deanna <dconstab@TakeThisPartOut_hotmail.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 10:32:49 (PST)

"IT" would be doing...ugh. My fingers fly fast and erratically!
Bj <bjkt@innerstory_youknowhwattodo.com>
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 06:22:38 (PST)

On a completely seperate note, here is another call for prayers and/or wishes for good luck. You all really came through for me during my board exam anxiety! There is a possibility that I will be offered my dream job within the next month. I describe it as a Counselor Troi position, for all you Star Trek fans. I would be exactly what I need doing things I feel good about doing...AND the company is in the process of being acquired, which could spoil the whole thing. So, here is my request: please visualize me getting the perfect work, and the perfect money in harmonious ways for all concerned in perfect love and perfect trust. Thank you so much! And are there things going on in your life that I could support?
Bj <bjkt@innerstory_youknowhwattodo.com>
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 06:21:24 (PST)

It's as if everyone I know has decided to hybernate at once. I can understand my mailbox being empty because the mail carriers (who, bless them, weren't all that efficient to begin with) have every reason to be cautious in my neighborhood...but my email box TOO? I didn't think anthrax can infect a keyboard but it seems the very thought of it can infect everything. One of my best friends works in the Capital Building (as a reporter) and others work in the Senate and House buildings. Talk about nerve wracking. I'm stressed for them but I'm not worried for myself in this context. No Cipro or gas masks for me. I might be whistling int he dark but I just can't see panicking about this. At least not yet.
Bj <bjkt@innerstory_youknowhwattodo.com>
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 06:16:58 (PST)

Hey all, just thought I'd drop a quick hello. Nothing interesting to say but always glad to stop in and see who else has been here. Later!
Marek <marekp@-don'tknowwhattomakeup-juno.com>
USA - Sunday, October 28, 2001 at 20:15:11 (PST)

Anyone heard any news from the World Peace Walk which took off yesterday?? October 27-Nov 17th NYC-DC - www.worldpeacewalk.org. Jun-san will be leading Nipponzan Myohiji 2002 Hiroshima Flame Interfaith Pilgrimage - A walk to Stop Star Wars Seattle - NYC Jan 15- May 13 2002 - www.dharmawalk.org
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@whereforarttho-aol.com>
Ashland, OR USA - Sunday, October 28, 2001 at 09:10:29 (PST)

Okay, where is everyone? Joe, ... what was it like at "ground zero"? How did it effect you? Hello to all. Hugs and peace --
Jeanine (Malito) <dsoper@clipper.net>
USA - Saturday, October 27, 2001 at 11:19:43 (PDT)

Thanks for the Washington Post link on al Qaeda in Europe: very sobering stuff. Very. An important piece to read, to get a bigger picture of what's coming down.
Lynn <welcome@removethesewordsolympus.net>
WA USA - Wednesday, October 24, 2001 at 14:23:40 (PDT)

Last weekend I saw Gret Gentile in Philadelphia and she took me to a Pete Seeger Concert. It was sold out and she pleaded with the guy at the door, "We were on the Great Peace March and Pete came and played for us and we walked across the country and then Russia and we just have to get in!!!" The guy let us in for free to sit on the floor. Thank you Goddess! Pete Seeger is 82 and still playing his banjo for peace and social justice. The entire evening was a blessing. I am now in New York City. I plan on going downtown today to see the devastation. The former site of the World Trade Center has become a sacred place. A burial ground for thousands of souls. I will send out my energy to the healing effort underway in all parts of the planet. I am more sure than ever that all things in life and death are connected and all things posess power and spirit. I will pray for balance, harmony and wholeness. I will cry. I will think of my sisters and brothers from the GPM and send out love. Blessings to all our relations. Thank you Gret!
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.DRUBAWANTSTOHELP.org>
USA - Wednesday, October 24, 2001 at 07:25:02 (PDT)

A little poem by Calvin Trillin: By night our missiles rain on them/By day we drop them bread./They should be grateful for the food -/Unless, of course, they're dead.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Wednesday, October 24, 2001 at 00:03:26 (PDT)

I found it helpful.
BIL COLBURN
USA - Tuesday, October 23, 2001 at 14:06:46 (PDT)

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For any of you who still happen to believe that some 'corporate' journalists may have integrity and useful investigative reporting skills that they can call upon from time to time, the following Washington Post article about Al Qaeda's international terrorist cell structure may prove to be both informative and interesting. These guys are serious and the US is definitely not their only target. It is titled:

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31080-2001Oct21.html

Whether we employ violent or nonviolent approaches to resolving this problem, we cannot effectively confront an opponent we do not understand. Accurate sources of information really are essential in the struggle for peace.

Hope you find it helpful. ;>)

TNH <yeahyou@let'slearneverythingwecan.org>
Bliss Falls, DC USA - Tuesday, October 23, 2001 at 00:36:35 (PDT)

Much thanks for your kindness Marc! Much warmth to all you gentlemen and gentlewomen reading this. Also to you gentlechildren and gentlebabies in the house, all around the globe.
BIL COLBURN <bilcolburn@yahoo.com>
Los Angeles, YA USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 15:50:54 (PDT)

Marc and BJ I hear you. Let your love flow.....
Kim S.H. <yowbap@home.com>
Oly, WA USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 14:12:07 (PDT)

Thanks, Karen, for providing a door through which I, somewhat abashed, can reenter the conversation. I do express my frustration too stridently on this page, but where else if not here? You are the people, after all, with whom I marched (yes, we all argued too) nine months for PEACE! And look where we are fifteen years later. Where is David Mixner now that we really need him? It’s a million times more frightening today than it was in 1986. (Who could imagine anything like this back when we walked across the country?) What kind of peace march do we need today, and where?
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 11:02:33 (PDT)

Marc, What a lovely sentiment. I too wish the anons would simply check in with their own names. I'm pretty sure they'd be surprised by the welcome they'd receive. As for forgiveness. Bless your heart, I've been doing the same thing in my life. Making amends...taking every opportunity to love and be loved. It seems that, in the face of so much uncertainty, opening my heart even wider is the only thing over which I truly have control. I've done things and thought things that I've never have before and feel more alive, even in my fear.
Bj <bjkt@innerstory_the most important story there is.com>
USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 07:18:27 (PDT)

There is so much alienation in our world, even amongst us on the guestbook page. I feel that our anonymous posters are the most alienated among us, and need the most unconditional love. Teach, TNH, and various anonymies, you don't have to be clever to be loved. One day, when you feel comfortable, check in with your real names, and none of us need ever be the wiser. I wish that these trying days, when so many of us are feeling sick at heart, both because we feel less physically safe than we did six weeks ago and because we are sick about the bombing of precious innocent lives (including those of children) in Afghanistan, would break our hearts open and render us humble. If there's anyone reading this whom I've ever hurt in any way, I am sorry, and I ask forgiveness. And I just want to say to Bil: your words and your presence on this page are healing too!
marc
USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 02:02:38 (PDT)

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Hmmm .... No, Julia. I believe the correct characterization of Mr. Walker's little sketch would better be 'allegory', than 'diatribe'. I shared it primarily for it's reference to Heisenberg and his "Uncertainty Principle", as my guess is that he (Heisenberg) is probably howling in his grave at the deft expropriation of his work in theoretical quantum physics to explain ideologically determined social and interpersonal dynamics.

Certainly, my intent was not to trigger yet another bout of personal angst for you, with regard to your previously disclosed abusive childhood religious experiences. Most of us, who do not believe in 'gods' or 'goddesses', probably have had a number of equally unpleasant encounters with religious zealotry and manipulation in our lives. The author, however, is clearly not a particularly religious individual, as his willingness to write as if he were "GOD", him-or-herself, is clearly as blasphemous an act as any committed by any of the other physicists he names.

Besides... didn't you find it charmingly synchronous that he would not only be discussing the very subject that Karen was alluding to, but also that he would be named "John Walker"? For, after all, are we not all "John, or Julia, Walkers" in this closely-knit little family?

I must admit, though, that Holly's lyrics and vision are certainly much more exciting and satisfying than any number of arid exchanges on subjects like theoretical physics and quantum mechanics, so I do concur with Evan. Bury the bums in our dusty old archives! Perhaps we could agree to confine all postings here to only those that pertain to happy thoughts, babies, nonviolence, and our dreams for the future ...

TEACH
USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 01:48:51 (PDT)

Thank you Julia.
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@don't we all hate spam yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Sunday, October 21, 2001 at 18:14:24 (PDT)

I feel the need to push this anonymous diatribe by "Teach" down the page. Let's try this...
The Great Peace March

By Holly Near

Ancient eyes are watching in the night
The stars come out to guide the way
The sun still shines despite the clouds
And the dawn is dusk is dawn is dusk is day

Farmers rise and dream to feed the world
The world awakes to feed the heart
Hearts beat while a thousand flags are waving
And the farmer sees a dream has played a part

Chorus:
We will have peace, we will because we must
We must because we cherish life
And believe it or not, as daring as it may seem
It is not an empty dream, to walk in a powerful path
Neither the first nor the last Great Peace March
Life is a great and mighty march
Forever, for love and tor life
On the Great Peace March

Are you black like night or red like clay
Are you gold like sun or brown like earth
Grey like mist or white like moon
My love for you is the reason for my birth

Peace can start with just one heart
From a small step to leaps and bounds
A walk becomes a race for time
And a brave child calls out from the crowd

Chorus

The Great Peace March, is available as a children's book illustrated by Lisa Desimini, and is recorded on the CD: Musical Highlights

© 1986 Hereford Music (ASCAP)
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@windows_xp_is_out_thursday!_microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Sunday, October 21, 2001 at 13:51:05 (PDT)

Not the whole god thing again. Thanks everyone for your interesting thoughts on how the war relates to the oil issue. Roberta, I'd love to see the rest of your letter when you get a chance. I want to read those articles. Marc, as for the clothesline idea, yes, we do that whenever it's sunny and always have... it is especially fantastic for drying cloth diapers (if these are used in your house) because it also bleaches them without damage. I must admit though that the diapers are then stiff as a board and they get 10 minutes in the clothes dryer with a damp towel. :-) Still better than the 130 minutes they take to totally dry in there! Every little bit helps. We bought one of those electronically programmable thermostats, and that has saved us 20% over last year, already paying back the $50 investment. Don't think we'll ever see Bush put on a cardigan like Carter did, though. Ugh!
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@windows_xp_is_out_thursday!_microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Sunday, October 21, 2001 at 13:41:10 (PDT)

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Einstein, Heisenberg, and Tipler

by John Walker
9th August 1995

Einstein, Heisenberg, and Tipler, after equal invariant intervals in purgatory, find themselves before the Throne of God.

As a man, they exclaim, "What did I do to merit an eternity down (brrrrr) there"?

God thought for a moment; when you're omnipresent in spacetime there's no need for haste. He turned first to Einstein.

"Albert," he said, "you showed your species My creation in its most elegant form, law without Law. Then, inflamed by wartime passion, you urged the transformation of your discovery into a weapon of mass destruction."

Einstein shuffled his feet and nodded subtly. He resisted the temptation to stick his tongue out. God turned His omniscient Eyes toward Heisenberg.

"Werner, you discovered that I do play dice, and you glimpsed that I have to if anything interesting's going to happen--your last words were, `I will ask Him why there is turbulence'. I will answer you, `So there can be Heisenberg'. But you stayed in Germany, Werner! You worked on a reactor for Hitler; you taught physics to brown-shirted Nazi thugs. You'll recall that my Son is Jewish."

"Frank, Frank, Frank," God continued, "didn't you read my book? I read yours, you know. Does the phrase `Thou shalt have no other gods before me' ring a bell? How about `I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending'? You not only wanted to have another God before Me, you wanted to be Him. And the money, Frank...do you know how piddling an advance I got for the Bible?. And you assumed causality--you Frank! You should know me better than that."

Tipler, almost defiant, raised his head and fixed God with a cold stare. "Why are there singularities in Your universe?"

"Because there are things I don't want you to know," God responded calmly.

Heisenberg, his dying question answered, remained silent, pondering the choices he'd made during his life on Earth.

Einstein seized the moment, "Look, Old One", he said, "physics is local. You made it that way; I figured it out. But why is there that spooky action-at-a-distance nonlocality in quantum mechanics?"

God chuckled. Even experiencing all of spacetime at once, such events were rare. "Albert, your greatest talent has always been not finding the right answer--anybody could do that--but asking the right question. Your generation learned physics assuming I was a great watchmaker; you destroyed that notion, but most of you died off before it became evident what I was. I create abstract systems from pure information, Albert. I'm a programmer.

"Quantum nonlocality is a bug."

God turned to Saint Peter. "Einstein and Heisenberg go to Heaven. Send Tipler to the massive rotating cylinder to try again. Next case."

God hated these Judgement Days; he couldn't wait (to the extent that's possible for an omnipresent being) to get to back to his craps game with Wotan, Jove, and Shiva. Saint Peter looked up from his infinite scroll, "Fourth Commandment: blasphemy--eternal damnation. Send in Lederman and Hawking".

What was it about these physicists, God wondered, as they approached the Throne.

TEACH
USA - Sunday, October 21, 2001 at 08:58:06 (PDT)

Scientific basis for nonviolence as a practical method: (especially for Gene!) The Heisenberg uncertainty priciple and recent discoveries in quantum mechanics has shown that even to OBSERVE a subatomic particle is to change it. Even more surprising, the intention of the observor has an effect on the results of the experiment. So, James, you postulated a situation similar to the one often used to challenge a philosophy of nonviolence "what if someone was about to murder your child, would you kill that person?" This is often held up as the "litmus test" to see if a person is really nonviolent. Personally, I think that no one can say what they would do in a situation like that, especially if there is no time to de-escalate the situation, what comes out of us in crisis is a result of so many previous experiences. But there is a transforming power that can be tapped into, and that has been used successfully in many situations of personal self-defense, (there is a documentary -- of people who describe their real-life experiences) There are no guarantees. If you are a black-belt, or if you carry a gun, there are no guarantees that you will be able to "save" yourself or others, (although the NRA would like you to believe that the hijackings wouldn't have occurred if the passengers had been armed.) Likewise there are no guarantees that a nonviolent approach would be successful. But there is a track record of nonviolent approaches being successful in such cases. These tactics have involved principles such as: taking the initiative in the situation, since sometimes the victim is in a stronger mental state than the attacker; expressing genuine concern for the attacker's well-being and possible consequences of the intended action; observing and addressing the hurt person within; being unwilling to cause harm; using humor; changing the "script" the attacker has planned out, using surprising responses; using problem-solving; and on and on. Yes, all of this presupposes that there is time for a response. And no, this does not blame those who have been victims, because every situation is unique. But everyone hears only the crimes that were committed. The evening news does not highlight the crimes that were de-fused or even prevented by alert, skilled, dedicated, compassionate intervention. So we grow up with a cultural bias that nonviolence is a nice "soft" philosophy, for children and flowers...but it wouldn't work in extreme situations. Yet, history has shown it highly effective in very extreme situations. And many times, it has worked precisely FOR those people who were willing to die rather than kill. As is true in quantum physics...perhaps their intention influenced the outcome. Love, Karen Tracy
ktracy@dnaco.net <ktracy@dnaco.net>
oh USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 22:41:48 (PDT)

Dova is climbing stairs and waving like she's a princess on a Rose Parade float. She also growls like a little bear. I'm a happy mom, but unhappy citizen. Here is the start of a letter to my congressperson from someone else. These paragraphs talk about the oil factor in the current war and make references to other sites: Dear Congressman Inslee: I was very disturbed to learn through the alternative press this past week that there is an apparent underlying motive for our aggressive attack on Afghanistan: the replacement of the Taliban authority with a stable government in order to allow the construction of two pipelines from the Caspian Sea oil field to Pakistan, India and the Gulf region, as presented in the two attached articles: Questions Arise About Role of Oil in "War on Terrorism" http://www.indymedia.org/ The New Great Game: Oil Politics in Central Asia http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11692
Roberta
USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 22:38:38 (PDT)

I enjoy reading all the thoughtful posts. And your opinions have inspired me to share this information, for the benefit of those who might not know it. There are organizations that have been studying and teaching nonviolence for over a hundred years. (sorry Gene, the only credible nonviolence training organizations I know of, are spiritually centered.) From this body of experiences, this track record of putting peace into practice, has come some basic principles. 1. Peace is a verb. Being peaceful does not mean doing-nothing on the one hand, or carrying protest placards on the other. It means being trained to intervene in a conflict situation, with self-control, discipline and skill. 2. Violence tends to escalate unless some intervention is made. 3. The same skills and nonviolent principles that apply on the personal level, also apply on the community, city, state, national, and international level. Principles such as shared power, fair and just access to resources, having a worthy purpose, mission, or goal, having in place and using conflict resolution methods and systems...and -- very important -- proper training BEFORE a conflict arises. I find that teaching in this field renews my hope with each class! I see people finding their power as they learn to take action in ways that solve problems and that sometimes transform entire conflict situations. Love, k
ktracy <ktracy@dnaco.net>
OH USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 21:51:30 (PDT)

Gosh, what synchronicity. I woke up this morning thinking about our dependence on oil, no kidding, and then I check the website and there are these totally same-wavelength posts from Julia and Kim!! Bo Lozoff of the Human Kindness Foundation has written that the most radical activism we can engage in is to simplify our lives: consume less, use less energy. On that score, I can't help but feel that VP Cheney's statement this year about conservation perhaps being a "personal virtue" but not anything that could seriously address our energy needs--that statement was just evil. Just awful. And of course he has credibility with millions, because he's VP, and so they'll think, "Well, after all, it doesn't really matter that much what I do."

On a happier note, a few months ago, my wife Eve had the idea to set up a clothesline in our backyard, after she read that the dryer consumes a whole lot more energy than any other household appliance. So we've been drying our clothes out on the line, and--this is no joke--our electric bill went down about 35-40%!! Better yet, we like the way the clothes feel after they've been dried on the line. It's like they have this natural earthy vibe, like they've absorbed the weather and it feels nice on our skin. They come off the line a little stiff, but that goes away quickly. And of course, the clothesline doesn't wear out our clothes like the dryer does.
marc
USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 11:29:03 (PDT)

Julia, the US being dependent on Russia for oil sounds like it could be an interesting relationship, but I'm afraid we'd get in there and try to run their show too. I like the idea of us becomming less dependent on oil, use alternative means to keep us going. I might even turn my '62' Ford Falcon (upgraded runs on unleaded fuel @ about 25 miles to the gallon)into a planter, for a vehicle powered with solar panels. I know some folks, in rainy Olympia, that are trying to drive as little as possible, and, instead, ride bikes. One man with two small sons has a train of bikes; his recumbent bike, attached to a small two wheeler, attached to what looks like a small covered wagon. They get around this way, packing rain gear just in case.
Kim Salerno Hunter <yowbap@home.com>
Oly, WA USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 10:05:07 (PDT)

So what do you all think of the somewhat-underreported news that we plan on shifting the bulk of our oil imports from the Middle East to Russia? My first reaction: FANTASTIC! It will hopefully take some of the pressure off the situation in the ME if it causes us to withdraw troops as we feel less "need" to be there to defend our interests. And it will also hopefully help the economy of Russia, though I hesitate to say that it will help the average person there... I doubt that the government lets things trickle down that much. Still, eventually, maybe the schools and hospitals, etc., will be improved with oil money.

There's just something so rich about becoming dependent on the very people we used to loathe more than anyone else. (Ignoring the true fact that we are all interdependent, whether we like each other or not). To my mind, the increased trade can only be good for both sides.

Of course, the real answer is to change the US organism so that it's not oil pumping through our veins. Hold up your hand if you drive a Ford Explorer or larger... hmmm... I see... well, I doubt we're going to find a way to change that situation any time soon, especially with George W. and Dick in the White House. I feel we've missed a real opportunity under Clinton and Gore.

Speaking of Gore... how many of you voted for him? (hands) How many of you are now deeply and quietly pleased that he is NOT in office right now? I have no hesitation is saying that I voted for him, happily, and now I am VERY happy that he is not in office. I know he would have handled things beautifully as he is very intelligent, but I'm not sure how he would have avoided war and I'm glad the blood's not on his hands. Perhaps my view is very naive, being young and all :-) but this is where I'm coming from these days.

Hope everyone is enjoying the weather you're getting (crisp and cool in our case, wonderful) and that you are well and at peace.
P.S. My next car will be the gas/electric hybrid Toyota Sienna minivan when they come out in 2003. Until then, I drive my Toyota Camry as little as possible, and carpool every single day. If there wasn't a toddler to take to daycare in the picture, I would still be on the bus, which has excellent service here (King County/Seattle).
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 03:35:00 (PDT)

I'm gratefully listening. The healing energy that can be communicated here feels helpful, especially now.
BIL COLBURN <bilcolburn@yahoo.com>
USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 01:06:23 (PDT)

Evan, I don't think it's either/or. I think it's a complicated and mysterious question--what the terrorists' motives are. Bin Laden has been very explicit about what he wants--U.S. military out of Saudi Arabia. He's been saying it for years. I'm sure many Arabs find our presence there offensive, some more than others. I imagine that even if many terrorists have religious convictions to the effect that we all deserve to die, they might be less motivated to act on those beliefs if we weren't so in-their-face and on their land, for the sake of controlling the oil there. And I know you know (probably a lot better than I do, because you are more historically well-informed than I), U.S. policy in the mid-east has done a great deal to ferment religious extremism. My understanding of Iran's history, for example, is that Iran had a relatively moderate ruler in the 50s, before the Shah. Our CIA infiltrated and toppled that government in order to install the Shah, who oppressed the people, flagrantly offended cultural tradition, and brought in a lot of western influence and western business. The "karmic" result of all this came to fruition in the late 70s, when the Shah was deposed, ushering in the reign of the Ayatollahs. I imagine that Iran today is still a much more religiously conservative nation than it might have been had the US left it alone.
Marc Polonsky <marcwordsmith@sfo.no spam please com>
El Cerrito, CA USA - Friday, October 19, 2001 at 23:22:23 (PDT)

Kim, it's always great to see you here, neighbor. Thanks for your story and your thoughts. That story has a lot of lessons in it for me. Joe, I loved your letter and your post. I only disagree on one point and I think we have to agree to disagree. I don't believe these acts of terror and murder were carried out by people wanting a change in mid east policy. I think they were carried out by people who want nothing less than our conversion to their beliefs or our death.
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@don't we all hate spam yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Friday, October 19, 2001 at 12:33:55 (PDT)

What I didn't say yesterday is that I find the vast majority of posts on this site to be thoughtful, kind, smart, passionate, loving and frequently funny. I'm so glad this message board exists.
Lorien <yenooc@worldnet.att.REMOVETHIS.net>
SF, CA USA - Friday, October 19, 2001 at 09:39:49 (PDT)

It is a beautiful sunny morning on the East Coast. Thanks for your thoughts on this page - love to you all from me.
Ben Atherton Zeman <benz@smoc.org>
Framingham, MA USA - Friday, October 19, 2001 at 06:21:20 (PDT)

Wow! Interesting thoughts and considerations from all of you. I have strongly taken a stand against retaliatory violence. Simply, to respond with violence only continues the cycle of violence, and promotes the growth of hatred. I also believe the death penalty is wrong; unresolved energy does not cease to exist. However, I often ask myself how I would respond if my child was attacked or killed by another. I could imagine feeling a gamut of emotions; I could imagine wanting to kill the offender. I hope that I would experience these feelings, and then move beyond to a place of healing, both for myself and the offender, and act from this stance. I do have an experience from my childhood that has stayed with me. It was during the late sixty's when there was alot of racial violence happening. Walking home from elementary school, I often walked past numerous encirclements around fist fights. I disliked fights, and especially disliked the spectators cheering them on. One day, I walked past a group of girls viciously screaming, "Get her! Kill her!" I felt a little curious, but it was also very creepy. When I got home, some of the neighbor kids ran up to our house and told us that it was my sister (even telling this story all these years later, I am crying) that was in that circle getting beaten up. The girls cut her leg with a pair of scissors. The offending girls then had the audacity to come and stand outside of our home and taunt us. For the first, and only time in my life, I wanted to get them, kill them, I don't know what, it was illogical. A group of people had to forcefully hold me back. Thirty-some-odd years later, I know that I have developed better anger management skills, but I also know that I have the ability to strike. I have also not been hit so close to my heart since. The attacks on folks here and in Afganistan have me feeling overwhelmingly numb. I can't take in the reality of it without feeling the sheer insanity of the actions of all the offenders. I feel I have no choice but to consciously worked towards responding to conflicts with sane peaceful resolutions to help promote a cycle of love, respect and peace.
Kim Salerno Hunter <yowbap@home>
WA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 23:37:34 (PDT)

Thanks, Evan for your kind words. I love you very much also. My problem with anger is like an alcoholic's problem with liquor. It is forever, but I am striving to be in a state of recovery. My Men's Group is heatedly addressing many of the issues that we are discussing here at the GPM. Below is part of a letter that I wrote to the guys in my group. Hopefully it is of interest and relevant to our discussion here. ___________________________________________________________ I am quite clear and sorry that I was shouting last night and I would have liked for the meeting go on for a while until it could have ended on a more conciliatory note. Alas... I still love and respect each and every guy in our group and look forward to more intense dialogue with you. I do believe that people perform evil acts but not that people are evil. People of course are responsible for their acts and should be punished and rewarded accordingly. I also believe that nobody is beyond redemption. The terrorism that occurred on Sep 11 was definitely aimed at the symbols of America. However, I think that the stated aims of the terrorists are more related toward changing US involvement in the Middle East(Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel/Palestine) than to the direct destruction of the American way of life. For me the real answers to Sep 11 are bringing the terrorists to justice via the institutions of international law and ensuring the safety and security of American citizens. Yet, I see precious little effort being expended to ensure our safety and security. My recent airline flight with an open cockpit door confirmed that feeling for me. Why haven't cockpit doors been secured? Why are armed marshals not flying on every flight, except for those lucky flights into and out of DC National? Why are chemical spectrometers not being used to scan mail? We pursued justice through the courts and the UN in the case of Pan Am 103; why not in the case of Sep 11? (Thank you, James.) A rational response to the violence of Sep 11 would involve an attempt to understand the causes of that violence and address the causes. What we are doing in Afghanistan may kill the terrorists responsible for Sep 11 and may also create thousands more terrorists who will be willing and eager to die while killing more of us. The core causes of MidEast terrorism are not being addressed. To me that does not seem like a rational solution to the problem. I am all for self-defense and the more aggressive the better, but killing this generation of terrorists without addressing the conditions that create them will undoubtedly lead to a new and more desperate generation of terrorists to come. I am not opposed to all violence. I am not opposed to all warfare. I believe in self-defense. However, I believe that our current military strategy will not bring us our desired results.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.Dr.Uba.org>
USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 16:05:59 (PDT)

Thanks for the "upgrade" Evan. Does this mean that Ghandi would advocate killing in self defense, unlike, say, the Dalai Lama? Would he himself? Are there "official" definitions of pacifism that include these fine points or are they defined by, well, us? There's a buddhist story that's been debated for centuries, about a monk who kills a pirate to save a boat load of people from rape and murder. One school of thought is that he was wrong and shouldn't have done it. The other is that his act was noble even though (or perhaps BECAUSE) he was set back big time in the karma department. Maybe this stuff is off topic or too nit-picky to be relevent to todays world...but it seems important for me to map out my beliefs as clearly as possible since my beliefs are, in a way, on the line at the moment. And you are lovely cartographers to compare maps with.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 14:06:35 (PDT)

Joe, as always I enjoy your posts and admire your heart and thinking. Perhaps it is just my perception, but I believe you have grown tremendously in the years since the march. I admired you then, but always felt there was an angry streak in you. That does not appear to be there anymore. James and Shabtai, thank you for saying some of the things I felt uncomfortable saying in this forum. I do want to take exception to one thing you said, James. You refer to Ghandian pacifism. I have been a student of Ghandi's life and teachings for many years and I would not call him a pacifist. For one, he always conceded that nonviolence could only succeed if a majority of the people you oppose were essentially good. People following a belief system that requires the death of those who do not agree are not essentially good in my opinion. He also stated that nonviolence was the only option if you faced overwhelming force. Taking on an army with a peashooter will get you killed, but standing bravely in front of a tank may change hearts and minds. Ghandi supported military action against Hitler because he believed that Hitler and his cadre would never respond to nonviolence. As for the bombing tactic, right or wrong, it is our military's strategy to reduce casualties on our side to virtually zero like desert storm. They want no repeats of Vietnam. So they bomb everything until there's nothing left to oppose ground forces. I don't defend their actions, but I say it to help us all understand that they are not merely insane or extremely violent. It is a philosopy of preferring the death of innocents on the other side to any deaths among "our" soldiers. It is not an honorable tactic, but an understandable one. One thing I hope we can all do is bear witness. Most Americans have no concept or understanding of the fact that Baghdad, a city of four million at the time, was the most bombed city in history during desert storm, more than Hiroshima or Nagasaki or Dresden, Germany in WWII. I believe the best hope for those of us in the peace camp is to continue education to try and humanize us to those in the arab world. I believe (and like most Americans, my opinions are probably ill informed about the arab world) that the majority of the arab world does have many beefs with us, some legitimate, but that they do not wish wholesale death upon us. The more we can do to humanize our people and our culture and especially the victims of this brutal attack, the better our chances of dealing with a majority who are "essentially good". Then nonviolence will stand a chance of working.
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@don't we all hate spam yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 13:34:50 (PDT)

Ummm, I just read my post again... did I just sort of swear in it too? I have TWO Krispy Kreme donuts coursing through my body (one was jelly-filled which as you all know is extra potent). My apologies. I'll just sit here in my sugar bliss and not type :)
Deanna "Swearing Like a Sailor" Constable
USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 11:42:43 (PDT)

By the way, dear friends, please don't take my upper case letters for yelling. I don't know how to do any programming whatsoever. I'd use italics if I could program it that way. :(
Deanna <dconstab@is_it_hotmail.com>
Oakland, Ca USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 11:28:29 (PDT)

I agree with you, James. I keep getting stuck on this "War Against Terrorism" theme that's spewed at us in this country. Does anyone TRULY believe that those bombs are killing terrorists?? How far does that definition, "terrorist," play out to? I see this as a "catch-all" slogan that is supposed to placate all of us who want justice for what happened. Hell, people, I'm old enough to know a few things: 1. Life is NOT fair and justice, if it arrives at all, is very sweet although elusive, 2. I don't see today's bombs bringing anything but bad karma on all of us and 3. in the search for justice, this country has turned in on itself- hysteria and bullying seems to be the current "appropriate" responses. We are in an insane country right now. We truly are. WE ARE OUR OWN TERRORISTS now! I think it was you, James, who had a great slogan "Justice without War." I'm going to be making a sign and standing on Market Street here in San Francisco at lunch time with that slogan- it fits my thinking to a tee. Beyond all this craziness- Julia! Congratulations!!! I personally understand your struggle and commend you for your openness. Fight on, girlfriend, I'm there with ya! Love and tolerance abound this day and tomorrow-
Deanna <dconstab@is_it_hotmail.com>
Oakland, Ca USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 11:26:21 (PDT)

Well, I have to agree Shabtai, and confess that I am not a true Gandhian pacifist, in that if someone's intention was to kill me or my family, and there was NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE, I would take that persons life, without hesitation. My point here is that I do not believe that the war in Afghanistan in any way protects us from terrorism, but rather, increases our danger. To kill innocent people out of vengeance, rather than actually address the issue of our real safety and security is not only counter productive- its morally reprehensible. This has nothing to do with the intent of the terrorists or whether they can be persuaded of anything. The peace community is being attacked on all sides now for allegedly wanting to "make peace" with the terrorists rather than seek justice. I'm sure there are folks out there who are that naive. I haven't met them.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 10:49:51 (PDT)

Okay, maybe it's not respectful to call posts xenophobic. What I mean is, I didn't agree with everyone I heard speak around me on the Peace March, either, but I know everyone's opinions expanded my knowledge of humans, and I really like to know about everything that's going on around me, even if some of it is a little bit scary.
Lorien
SF, CA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 10:42:03 (PDT)

Hi Everyone, thanks for the recent laughs and love on the message board. I haven't been here for a while, and have already made myself in a rush for work by reading/skimming what has been posted since I last read, but I thought I'd just check in. Thanks for the hello, Karen, it's good to hear from you! I'll try to write soon; I owe Marc an email too, where does the time go? :) My respectful opinion about this long message board is that even though some posts seem xenophobic to me, and some posts I don't read because the responses to them by other people seem filled with hurt, and some are just too long (like I hope this one doesn't turn out to be), I love it that they're all here. It's like wandering around Peace City at dinnertime, catching bits of conversation; I would feel like I was missing something if I chose just one theme at a time. I could be wrong, maybe in this time of extra stress all change seems scary. Peace to all!
Lorien <yenooc@thanksforthewarningaboutspam.com>
SF, CA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 10:38:23 (PDT)

I agree with much of what Frank said. Even more, I strongly disagreement with many of the posts I've seen here (regarding war & terrorism).

I haven't posted my thoughts, because until now I thought that most of you wouldn't give my words serious consideration. But then I read Joe Kinczel's message, where he wrote, "Respectfully expressing what one believes is correct from deep inside one's heart is not a popularity contest." Than you, Joe. In that spirit, I am motivated to try and thoughtfully express my feelings.

Many people in this forum proceed from this false assumption: the notion that real peace is desired by all, and that tolerance is a universal principle. During the March I learned that many (most?) Americans are tolerant of differences between people, and have a "live-and-let-live" attitude. The extreme form of this attitude is libertarianism. I'm not a strict libertarian, but I am tolerant of people who look, act, dress, eat, speak and worship differently than do I. Orthodox Judaism teaches me that every righteous person (Jew and non-Jew alike) has a place in the world to come.

I suspect that many GPMers feel the same way.

But there are many people in the world with values very different from ours. They do not tolerate those who think differently. This lack of tolerance is not the visceral hatred that we attribute to Nazis and the Klan. It isn't racial; it is based on core beliefs. In their view, only when you change your beliefs to match theirs can you be accepted. If you hold on to your beliefs, you must be killed. They see this as a moral obligation, so you can't make them feel guilty about it. They'd feel guilty about not killing you.

If a man believes that your are immoral, and that it is morally correct for him to kill you, then it is unlikely in the extreme that he will be dissuaded by the words of anyone. He certainly won't be convinced by the words of a non-believer like you.

Of course we should make every reasonable effort to try and forestall violence. But we should not stand by while people plot our death. My religion does not permit me to be passive in the face of violent intent. My religious obligation is clear:

"If somebody comes to kill you, rise early and kill him first" (Tractate Sanhedrin 72a).

In other words, if someone approaches me with the intention of killing me, I should kill the attacker as an act of self-defense, and my act is not considered murder.

Note to Jewish readers: I am not a posek (halachic authority), and nothing in this message should be construed as a pask (legal ruling).

I welcome your thoughts. If you want to send private email, please delete the obviously false part of my address.
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.No spam please, I'm Jewish.com>
Ann Arbor, MI USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 10:33:00 (PDT)

Do any of you go to Burning Man? I was so tempted to this year even though it was logistically impossible, but I'm having trouble sorting out if it would be my "scene". I would SO love to go, having established a PEACE VILLAGE with my GPM brothers and sisters. Anyone else?

Those of you following my weight loss journey, I am now one month post-op and down 37 pounds and 31.5 inches. I am sort of glad to have learned by email that I'm not the only marcher who got fat when the lifestyle got a lot richer than hummus and tents, even though I don't wish this struggle on anyone. If anyone else is interested in weight-loss surgery, feel free to email me... I won't "out" you. :-)

Tonight my 21 month old daughter cut right to the heart of things when we were watching the news on TV. "Mommy, turn bombs off. Bombs bad." I swear that I have not prompted her or coached her on this, but Joanne's certainly got that right!
Love to everyone. Hope this was a 20 second distraction from the war.
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@we_rule_at_microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 02:41:28 (PDT)

Traditional peace activities such as dissenting from the majority opinion supporting war and violence are never more relevant than during a war. The fact that most people want to fight back does not convince me that bombing Kabul will get us what we really want and need after Sep 11 which is real security and safety. Americans under Ronald Reagan in 1986 were no more interested in being distracted by our voices calling for nuclear disarmament than Americans now under George Bush are interested in being distracted by our voices opposing the bombing of Afghanistan. Americans in 1845 were not interested in the dissenting voices of abolitionists calling for an end to slavery. Respectfully exressing what one believes is correct from deep inside one's heart is not a popularity contest. If we want to protect and respect diversity of opinion in this country, then we must express our diverse opinions. That is exactly what we did in 1986 and exactly what I think we must do right now. One of the biggest problems the American public faces is seeing world and domestic events through the corrupt lens of the corporate media. Providing alternative opinions and information is more relevant now than ever before and it is our right to try and peacefully affect public opinion in all its complexity. May mercy and compassion enfold us all. I love and respect you Frank.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.doctoruba.org>
USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 21:54:22 (PDT)

I'm not sure I agree with every point here, but this editorial addresses the other side of Frank's argument--that the war hawks must be more understanding of us, as well: The chorus of denunciations leveled at peace activists by critics such as Columbia University’s Marc Berley (P-I 9/26/01) and now the Seattle P-I’s own Joel Connelly (10/15/01), as well as by other professed patriots, have moved the level of debate to new lows of verbal cheap shots. These war proponents refuse to face vital issues raised by the peace movement, resorting instead to irrelevant sloganeering. First, let’s get one thing straight: No one in the peace movement argues — or even thinks — that the suicide attackers were justified or that their proven co-conspirators should not be brought to justice. Undeniably, though, long-standing policies of the U.S. have caused — and continue to cause — great harm to people in the middle east. Peace activists point this out and for this they are labeled unpatriotic terrorist sympathizers. The charge is unfair and untrue because it confuses explaining the causes of terrorism, on the one hand, with justifying it, on the other. Understanding what causes the hate and desperation that drives some fanatics to criminal or terrorist acts is not by any means to excuse them. But just because their acts were an inexcusable and a terribly wrong over-reaction to grievances does not mean the grievances are groundless. Indeed, those who lambaste the critics of U.S. policies want Americans to focus on the wrong of the attacks and to forget about the wrong that had a hand in bringing them about. They never ask the question: Is there any truth in what the peace movement is saying? Bringing up mistakes of U.S. policies is said to cause disunity and is simply not open to discussion, according to war enthusiasts. And why not? Because they are so beguiled by their own rhetoric of retaliation and revenge that they see war as the only solution. They minimize or ignore the cost and futility of “winning” a war against a furtive band of stateless desperados, some unseen, still among us. Yet the conventional war they urge inevitably will strike down many more innocents than guilty, swelling the ranks of U.S. haters and escalating rounds of retaliation against America’s vulnerable target rich cities and infrastructure. Worse yet, the war hawks ignore a simple and just solution to the problem. Most of us in our every-day lives, when faced with a problem, ask ourselves: What is causing it? And then we set about to cure the problem by eliminating the cause in the most efficient and least harmful way, being unafraid to admit and correct our own mistakes, if they are a part of the problem. That is the rational course here. The remedy is to change our policies toward the middle east. That would include, for starters (1) ending the useless and devastating sanctions against Iraq, (2) withdrawing U.S. troops from Saudi Arabia and our warships from the Gulf, and (3) withholding financial and military support from Israel until it does whatever is necessary to settle its differences with the Palestinians. When we take these and other similar steps how will terrorist ring leaders induce followers to martyr themselves just to kill innocent Americans? Some will say this is giving in to terrorists. Not so. We should do what is right toward the people of the middle east, regardless of the wrongdoing of a relatively small number of their lunatic fringe. We, the ordinary people of the U.S. have no interest in and no need to exert power and influence in the middle east. It is those who finance the election of our political cheer leaders and who own the major media organs that have the need for this; not us. One must see through their war propaganda and conclude there are corporate financial interests at stake here, not the interests of average Americans. There cannot be a credible fear that a puny, war-devastated Afghanistan or a twice beaten Iraq are a real or even a potential threat to our freedoms and our way of life, even if we hold our overwhelming military might in reserve at home to protect real American interests, not those of some un-elected Saudi oil sheik. Jerry Cronk
Roberta
USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 21:13:22 (PDT)

Good! I respect your respect, James. And I do agree with your analysis of the logical outcome to our actions. As I said, there is a global dialogue taking place, as we speak. My concern has more to do with developing a shared and realistic interpretation of our current situation, as well as an understanding of why the world may appear to be spinning out of control. We cannot hope to intervene in any effective way, if we start off by viewing our opponents as aliens.
Frank <peacegeek@hotmail.com>
Minneapolis, MN USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 14:47:36 (PDT)

When Liz died at the hands of terrorists our government responded. We meticulously built a legal case over several years. We negotiated, also for several years, with Libya for the extradition of the perpetrators. We succeeded on all counts, reaching convictions against the terrorists. Did this justice end terrorism? No. But more importantly, did this justice create more terrorism? No, by taking the moral high ground it showed the world how civilized people can achieve justice. On the other hand, every bomb we drop on Afghanistan creates more terrorists. We grow less safe every day this war goes on and we increase the chances of our own citizens suffering and dying. And we kill to achieve this, the antithesis of our #4 priority in life, safety. I converse respectfully (and regularly) with people who oppose my point of view and the sign I carry at rallys says simply "Justice without War". Will I shut up because the majority of Americans don't agree? Hell no.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 14:12:47 (PDT)

Untitled Normal Page
One thing I learned on the GPM was to respect the intelligence and ultimate sensibilities of the American public. I started off from LA with the misconception that my views about life and the course the future should take were certainly superior to the views held by most of the rest of the world. I thought 'conservatives' were as diametrically different from 'liberals' as both were from 'radicals'. The world was made up of nicely compartmentalized points of view for me, in those days, but the nine months I spent on the road, meeting America, and actually getting to know hundreds if not thousands of folks along the way, who only haphazardly fit into those preconceived ideological compartments, destroyed those illusions for me. By the time we reached D.C., I had begun to understand that the true strength and hope in our way of life is firmly anchored in the enormous diversity of our population and the melting-pot nature of our culture.

As many have begun to suspect, traditional peace activities are definitely irrelevant at this point. The problem is that we really are under attack, and most people believe that the only thing we can do right now is fight back. GW's soaring approval ratings (90-plus percent with each new assault or threat made against us) are clear proof that Americans are not interested in being distracted by peace demonstrations right now. I do believe that all lives are of equal value, but we have to realize that yesterday's attempted murder of 29 people in Senator Daschel's D.C. office and the similar assault on NY Governor George Petaki's staff in NYC are of much greater concern to the American public right now, than are euphemistically named "collateral" casualties in far away Afghanistan.

Psychologist Abraham Maslow described what he calls the "relative pre-potency of needs", which drive human behavior, and 'security' is #4 on his list, coming just after 'breathing', 'eating', and waste 'elimination'. Higher processes, like 'philosophy' and 'altruism' come into play later, once these more basic needs are met. Bin Laden, his sycophants, and whatever other maniacs decide to mimic his actions have forced us all into attending to "Need #4", right now. Peace activities and protests are much more likely to be perceived as distractions, at the moment, than as relevant and useful efforts to improve the world.

In 1986, we marched against nuclear weapons with the 'potential threat' of nuclear annihilation hanging in the air, and people were moderately responsive and sympathetic to us because they were worried, but not completely convinced, that nuclear war was imminent. Our mission, at that point, was to educate the general populace on the dangers of nuclear weapons production and the likelihood that nukes would be used, if we continued down the same Cold War path. The difference, now, is that we have actually been attacked -- first by the hijacked planes, and now with Anthrax.

Different challenging circumstances require different inspired responses. It is not helpful, now, for us to rail generally against the military's response in Afghanistan to these attacks on our country. Uncreative prattle, inflammatory rhetoric, and jingoistic insults directed at the US government and the Public's current support for patriotic displays of national unity are counterproductive and devisive. If we are to contribute to an eventual resolution to this crisis and help move the world forward along the path to peace, while still encouraging the advance of freedom and democracy, we must remember to respect the intelligence and passions of all who may not share our perspectives at this point.

Disrespect is a form of violence and it provokes disrespect in response -- just as physical violence does. Right now, in the midst of all this chaos, there is a global dialogue taking place about who we are, as a race of beings, and what it is we want for the future of our world. We can ultimately be far more effective in our efforts to build that better future by focusing on positive and constructive efforts which promote equity, peace, understanding, and the expanding awareness that we all live in one inextricably interconnected world.

Frank Holmgren <peacegeek@hotmail.com>
Minneapolis, MN USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 13:51:53 (PDT)

Good morning, you wonderful people! I just read a qoute from a Unitarian who said, "You drew a circle to shut me out but I drew a circle to take you in." I am making my way through my thoughts and fears and hopefully will begin to do more about waging peace. It still hits me like a forceful blow when I think that we are killing people on a daily basis (and then I think "How often does our country kill or hurt others that I don't even know about??") UGH! How are others doing today? Sending my best- BTW- Just to make sure, I "changed" my hotmail email address to stop the spaming- just take off the "is_it_" to reach me privately :)
Deanna <dconstab@is_it_hotmail.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 09:59:31 (PDT)

The GPM has given me so much over the years. One thing that has become clearer to me over time is the impact of our walk. We played a role in the ending of the Cold War. The size or importance of that role is irrelevant and cannot be measured. What is important is that we walked and talked and acted. At this time when everything can be so depressing and confusing(I hear you Roberta!), we can draw on our GPM experience for guidance. During the GPM we were basically ignored by the corporate media and we will be ignored again during this Sep 11 crisis. During the GPM we influenced and uplifted the people who saw us or talked with us and we will do so again during this crisis. During the GPM we acted on our common principles of global nuclear disarmament and non-violent resistance to the warmongering policies of our government and during this crisis we can act on our common principles again. We can educate and publicize the causes of peace and justice and perform non-violent resistance to the warmongering policies of our government. We know that the US government can no more justify the continued bombing of Afghanistan than the terrorists can justify the bombings of Sep 11. We can call attention to that and call attention to the total lack of real airplane safety measures taken by the government and airline industry. We can draw on the same courage that moved us to walk in 1986 to act again in 2001. The GPM worked and that experience can be our guide to action here and now. I am so grateful to you all for this life and the gifts of the GPM. Blessings to all our relations.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Tuesday, October 16, 2001 at 08:23:44 (PDT)

Every now and then I show Just One Step, the documentary by Cathy Zheutlin and edited by our own Mr. Knight, to some friends, usually young. I show it to them because I want them to see what a group of empowered people can do--what they might do. It is a beautifully done film. I never tire of seeing it. This time I watched, though, it was different for me. Personally, I realized that there was all this alive energy on the March, and while mine grew over the months I was kind of in the background doing my job and walking, letting the experience sink in with every step. I was pretty depressed when I left on the March, having just divorced a year or so before after 10 years of marriage and then broken up with a boyfriend who had worked for Pro-Peace. Yet I remember nearly every scene shown in the film because I was there, even though I don't appear in the film. This comes up because when I show it to others, they always ask "Where are you?" I guess it is not surprising that the only thing of mine in this film is my little Macintosh 512, which Ben Zeman convinced me to bring along for the Media trailer. (Oh dear, my machine is apparent, but not me.) But the more important thing I noticed was all the people I knew/still know, at least by face, including the many, many who have left us: Ginny, Liz Marek, Carlton, Ashley, Sheila Notkoff, Franklin, and on and on. We were not confused then about what to do about nuclear proliferation, but I am confused now. While I abhor all forms of violence, especially against the innocents killed in New York and DC and PA, I also abhor the violence our foreign policy has perpetrated throughout the world--from training torturers and dictators in the School of Americas, to sanctioning Cuba and Iraq, to having Allende assasinated in Chile, etc., etc. But I do not know what to do about it. Our voices for restraint seem muffled, though there are some who are speaking out. It seems like such a different climate than when we marched in 1986--we had the innocence of never being attacked in the lower 48 anyway. It makes me want to ask of Ginny, Liz, Ashley, Carlton, and Franklin and the others--what shall we do now, dear friends?
Roberta
Bainbridge Island, WA USA - Monday, October 15, 2001 at 23:09:59 (PDT)

Hello, my Tribe and Family -- This evening I celebrated the life of a friend who died about a year ago. We sang and danced and eat and drank in his memory and with each other and to life!
Jenaine Malito <dsoper@clipper.net>
USA - Sunday, October 14, 2001 at 20:36:39 (PDT)

I am grateful that the US Government did not bomb Afghanistan for three weeks after Sep 11. I felt that it was a miracle. Now, I am appalled that the US Government has already been bombing Afghanistan for the last week. Food is being dropped along with the bombs in order to make us feel good here in the USA. The amount and locations of the food drops have very little real value to those starving on the ground in Afghanistan. Now the US Government is talking about what countries will be next in line for our bombs. Is our government and its people so bereft of compassion for our own Sep 11 dead that we will inflict the same type of violence on others that we condemned here on Sep 11 in the USA? Can we come up with a balanced definition of terrorism that could possible include violence committed by the US Government? Can we come up with a creative response to violence that does not perpetuate more violence? Does the suffering of one person in the USA matter more than the suffering of one person in Afghanistan? Blessings to all our relations.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Sunday, October 14, 2001 at 08:31:39 (PDT)

Look what an awed silence has settled over the Peace March page. A miracle occurred. Everyone is so in wonder and admiration they know not what to say. The Great Atheist overcome by the Compassionate Buddhist! Bj exalts the event, blessing it with a crown of love, and on our Web site now there sits only a reverent hush. Ah, but Joe speaks all too true when he calls me dramatic. I’m a showoff more shameful than Katea, and an exhibitionist more irrepressible than is Sarah. So, to jump start our discussion again (and mostly to have more fun), (Marc, you can jump on me again if you like), I submit the following: The United States will FORGIVE Osama bin Laden and give him millions and billions of dollars. The U.S. will provide bin Laden with chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons – all he desires! Bush will pull down the pants of bin Laden and kiss this scum of the earth’s ass on worldwide TV! All of this our "leader" will do if, IF... - bin Laden will TURN HIS TERROR AGAINST COMMUNISTS. No, there’s no longer the big bad Soviet Union, but there are still far too many Communists left - in Vietnam, in China, in CUBA. Bin Laden must kill Fidel Castro! Yes, that’s how much the capitalist pigs who run (who RUIN!) our country hate and fear Communism – much more than they do Muslim fundamentalism. I’ll kiss YOUR ass if I’m wrong.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Saturday, October 13, 2001 at 14:58:44 (PDT)

Hassah! Love conquers all!!
Bj
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 13:46:49 (PDT)

And you, Joe, are the KING OF LOVE! Never before in my life have I felt such a wave of warmth washed with humor. This must be the MIRACLE of which you speak - the miracle of love. With that one exquisite message you have converted me. I am now a believer.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 11:42:14 (PDT)

Happy Friday! As to conflict resolution, Shabtai- I would agree- as long as there is resolution. The last presidential election gave me more questions, frustration and anger- perhaps because there was no resolution. Just because someone says there is doesn't mean there is (resolution, I mean :) I wanted to share the following I read today and pass it on: "GLOBAL PEACE INITIATIVE FROM AVALON. In consideration of the present world crisis, we the people who believe in world peace for all beings, call for a mass alignment of hearts and souls so that we can focus our collective energy and bring it about. Throughout Saturday October 13 - especially between 23.30 - 0.30 GMT, we will be gathering together at sacred sites and wherever we are on Earth - singing and playing the Beatles song "Give Peace A chance." Sending out love out to all beings as we do so, we will be heralding the end of all war mentality and helping to bring about a New Age of Global Peace. Love and peace be with you all. Please pass this info on to everyone you can." :)
Deanna <dconstab@is_it_hotmail.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 09:29:21 (PDT)

One of the lessons I learned on the Peace March is that people with strongly opposing opinions can still care for each other; we can all show concern for one another.

I remember a scene in Kathy's film showing a guy who was pro-nuke, who nevertheless hosted a barbecue for marchers. Facing the camera, he says something like, "I think these guys are wrong, we've got to have nukes to protect ourselves." Then he turns to the group of marchers and says, "Who wants another hamburger?"

I've never considered myself much of a patriot, but could you imagine a scene like that happening anywhere else in the world? After an election, we accept the will of the majority, even when we think they're wrong. Then the "losers" plan their strategy to try and win-over the minds of the voters; they work on winning the next election. In a sense, that's what we were trying to do on the GPM. (Remember spelling out "VOTE" with our tents?)

I think one reason that so many new democracies fail is that they have no tradition of peaceful disagreement. The losers don't accept their loss and plan for the next election; instead, they plot and execute a military coup.

Let me put this idea forth for discussion: Democratic elections are a form of non-violent conflict resolution. Waddya think?

Regards,
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.no spam please, I'm Jewish.com>
Ann Arbor, MI USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 08:11:41 (PDT)

Hello everybody.

This morning I had more SPAM waiting for me at my gpmguy address. The subject was "YOUR CHILD" and it was advertising a "STUDENT PLANNER AND STUDY SKILLS FOR SUCCESS PROGRAM."

Since I really really hate SPAM, I decided to do a little research. It's amazing what you can find by using the internet. For example, you may be interested to note that it was sent by:

Mr. David Semenas, a teacher at:
Goodrich Middle School
8029 S. Gale Rd.
Goodrich, MI 48438
phone: (810) 591-2253
fax: (810) 591-2222

Though he used a fake return address, his real address is: childrenf@yahoo.com

Why don't we all drop him a line and let him know how much we enjoy his SPAM?

Please remember that we're supposed to be peaceful; let him know what you think, but please don't be mean.

Regards,
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.no_spam_please,_I'm_Jewish.com>
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 07:52:34 (PDT)

Hello everybody.

This morning I had more SPAM waiting for me at my gpmguy address. The subject was "YOUR CHILD" and it was advertising a "STUDENT PLANNER AND STUDY SKILLS FOR SUCCESS PROGRAM."

Since I really really hate SPAM, I decided to do a little research. It's amazing what you can find by using the internet. For example, you may be interested to note that it was sent by:

Mr. David Semenas, a teacher at:
Goodrich Middle School
8029 S. Gale Rd.
Goodrich, MI 48438
phone: (810) 591-2253
fax: (810) 591-2222

Though he used a fake return address, his real address is: childrenf@yahoo.com

Why don't we all drop him a line and let him know how much we enjoy his SPAM?

Please remember that we're supposed to be peaceful; let him know what you think, but please don't be mean.

Regards,
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.no_spam_please,_I'm_Jewish.com>
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 07:36:59 (PDT)

Marc honey. You know what? I believe you!! It makes perfect sense that you would be my long-lost soldier. And actually, knowing it was the friendly aliens, rather than a ball of lead, makes me feel a lot better. Kind of settles my soul. Not all the kids made it after you left but the ones that did were up-standing. Wish I had pictures for you dear. And speaking of the kids. We need to negotiate some retroactive child support, don't you? A bushel of corn and a rack of venison for the coming winter will do nicely.
Bj
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 06:17:12 (PDT)

Gene, you are truly the reincarnated KING OF DRAMA and this is your stage! Just as soon as me and Dr. Uba get our money out of Nigeria, we are going to endow a chair in your name at the hot spring of your choice and it will be dedicated to Shakespeare, Marx and the study of DRAMATIC ATHEISM - all while soaking at 104 degrees. Don't you dare go anywhere!
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 00:52:28 (PDT)

I love you guys! You make me laugh! Now more than ever, I need to laugh at something, anything really.
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@weruleat.microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 00:35:23 (PDT)

BJ, honey, the spirit moves me to tell you at last. I was that Civil War husband who left you bereft with our seven young ones. But I wasn't killed in the war. I was on the battlefield, and a bullet was racing toward my heart when a shaft of light suddenly beamed from the sky and--BAM!--there I was, abducted by kindly space aliens. They explained to me that I was born for peace not war, for love not hate. I said, "Let me go back to my wife and children. Please! Please!" "Patience," they whispered gently. "We must teach you first, so that when you return to Earth, you will be ready to join a great Tribe. Only then will you meet your wife again. And then you'll just be friends." I didn't like that one bit, but what could I do? You can't really argue with the space aliens. Especially when they've just saved your life. But it is good to know you again, BJ. And really, I would have preferred to come home.
marc
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 22:55:03 (PDT)

Roberta and friends! I have a suggestion. This forum would be easier (and more FUN!)to use if it were set up with a format where "threads" could be followed. check out www.chilel.com click on "forum" and see what that type of forum would look like. Anyone logging on would see name of the person posting, and the subject line, and then you could decide which "thread" you wanted to read or answer. It would be easier to see if anyone answered your posting too. Lorien! It was so great to see your name here! write to me! Also -- no one clamoured for the chameleon-clothing info. Don't we ALL want one? or Two? I'm glad you liked the utilikilts site. The chameleon's website is something like www.crystal-stix.com but I'm not sure, I'll get it if you're interested in ordering with me. love to you all. Karen
Karen Jeffers Tracy <ktracy@dnaco.net>
OH USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 21:31:58 (PDT)

Yes, Gene, I did feel bludgeoned by your posts, but that may have ha