Bob Alei <BAlei@SpamBusters.mediaone.net>
Fresno, CA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 22:00:05 (PST)
Thanks, James, for the Moyers link. I haven't had time to digest the piece but it reminded me of another connection that some have drawn. KPFA had a piece on Democracy Now noting that Henry Kissinger and Zbignew Brezinski were, after their stints in Washington, hired as lobbyists for Unocal. Unocal was trying to work with the Taliban, as they began to consolidate power after the Soviets left, to get a major oil pipeline through Afghanistan. Funny how it seems that oil seems to be involved with everything we do in the Middle East. Funny if it wasn't so sad. You can hear the story at http://www.webactive.com/pacifica/exile/dn20011031.html.
Bob Alei <BAlei@SpamBusters.mediaone.net>
Fresno, CA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 21:59:39 (PST)
Evan, bro, thank you so much for the belly laugh and my continuing glow of amusement at that story!
Bob Alei <BAleiHi@SpamBeGone.mediaone.net>
Fresno, CA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 21:34:45 (PST)
One of my favorite march memories: Marcher on the hill above camp: "We looooooooove you." Marcher working in camp: "Then help me take out the gaaaaarbaaaage."
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@takethisout yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 18:48:38 (PST)
Roger that, Shabtai. "Freedom of Speech" also turns on the right to 'not listen'. I'm remembering how we all eventually came to react to that distant, haunting, wail [the thirty-third time we'd heard it, anyway] from unseen marchers across Peace City: "We L-O-V-E YOU!!!!!" And, as I've always considered myself part of the 'loyal opposition' in this group, I'm certainly concerned by the charge today that my anonymous input is the equivalent of terrorism.
My guess is that I've been winging through these pages quite a bit longer than you, but I know there are other marchers who have adopted similar ways of contending with my contentious input. My intention has always been to stimulate and provoke further discussion, but it is an undeniable fact that there have been times when I have gone too far and sacrificed any semblance of objectivity, allowing my own emotions to vent, instead. There have been many times, as well of course, when I have carefully practiced Bj's philosophy, not responding to the "bad behavior" I'd brought on myself with my provocations.
I do think, however, that you're mistaken about the degree of openess within the GPM towards dissenting perspectives. Shouting down, ignoring, avoiding, and talking an issue to death have been hallmarks of our group's approach to strategizing and understanding, since it's real inception in Barstow. The concept of 'effective group process' may have been understood by some marchers from the outset, but they were always greatly outnumbered, as the ever-present tedium and frustration of those endless City meetings demonstrated, time after time. We were never good at listening to one another.
The good news was that we all shared a common goal and grew to love, or at least accept, one another. The bad news was that our failure to correct the problem meant we were doomed to being a fractious group of individuals mostly 'doing our own things'. We came to celebrate that chaotic aspect of ourselves, and to elevate it to a sort of magical status that somehow might explain how we managed to stay together and actually reach DC on schedule, but it was also the most likely reason that we had 10,000 with us in Lafayette Park, on November 15th, rather than a couple million.
Anyway, thanks for the forgiveness you have advanced me. I know you're sincere in offering it, and I accept it. This will also be my final anonymous communication to you and my other marcher brothers and sisters. Self doubts and a general sense of weariness, which has set in with this new war and world we find ourselves facing, have co-conspired to convince me that I don't want to participate in this way, anymore. I think I'll just go to Tahiti.
Peace, love, hope, and grace to you all.
[By the way, Shabtai ... I did get a chuckle and a chill out of that 'peaceful approach' link you posted. And, just FYI ... I had SPAM and eggs for breakfast. Like war and violence, I know it's really bad for me, but, "Allah Be Praised", I do love that stuff! ;^>
Major Tom, and a few others...
Headed for the showers from Kandahar, Afghanistan - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 15:07:37 (PST)
Shabtai, your words always have a positive effect, especially if they're posted with all those cool effects - how do you do that, bro? :)
Ben Atherton Zeman <benaz@send.me.spam.I'm.a.gentile.com>
Framingham, MA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 13:17:27 (PST)
...ignore bad behavior so as not to reinforce it. -- Bj
I agree. I think the best way to deal with anonymous posters is to ignore them. Don't respond, and don't even comment on them. If they want to participate let them at least post a valid email address.
Before I begin my policy of quarantine, I do want to say a few words to TNH, Teach, Major Tom, and anyone else who feels compelled to post anonymously:
Advantage: to have a personal knowledge of one who does not have a reciprocal knowledge.You have the advantage of me; I don't remember ever to have had the honor." -- Sheridan
It just isn't fair. It is disrespectful. It is condescending & insulting.
There's no need to be anonymous, even if you have unpopular opinions. Consider this: my outlook is definitely in the minority here. I'm far to the political right of most other GPMers. But I don't feel threatened or unwelcome here. My fellow GPMers may dislike my opinions, but they don't dislike me. They like/love me, and I like/love them, no matter how misguided their politics. <grin>
So come on out of the closet. We'll be nice. We won't hurt you. We just want the discussion to be on equal ground. Just start posting using your real name. You don't even need to acknowledge your nom de plume. Consider yourself already forgiven.
I hope my words have had some positive effect. If any anonymous posters want to communicate with me privately, by all means, please do so.
TNH, Teach, Major Tom, this is my first and last post directed to you. From this point forward, I won't read any more anonymous posts. When you have the decency to address me on equal terms, I'll be glad to read what you have to say. Until then, I look forward to not hearing from you.
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.no spam please, I'm Jewish.com>
Ann Arbor, MI USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 12:33:59 (PST)
If you're interested in the "ethics" of our present war on terrorism, check out the Bill Moyers piece at http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1030-07.htm. He discusses the many ways our "representatives" are cashing in big time on this golden opportunity. All wrapped in red white and blue of course. And Nancy, the moments we spend loving rather than worrying are not a "cop out". Its the most important job we have right now.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 09:19:40 (PST)
Frank, too true. I do all I can to NOT participate in modern medicine but I sure appreciate it when my own brand of magic fails me. And I never understood the lack of focus on developing systems to deal with real threats.
I was struck by a piece I saw during the 6 hours total tv time I've watched about the 9-11 attacks. It was a feature about a tiny company that produces what has become the standard is security 'wands'-the hand held metal detecters. One day, they were a garage operation, the next day, they were changing the labels on their 'stud finder' product to reflect its security applications. The government had bought them out completely. It was a cute little American dream story and the owner, thankfully was not a greedy bastard. In fact, a hefty portion of each product's price went to the Twin Towers Fund.
My question is, why does it take something like this for us to suddenly realize what we need to be reactive to terror?
Bj
USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 07:01:48 (PST)
It strikes me that I ought to take my own advice when talking about preparing for terrorism. In effect, that is what the negative anon posters are...our own little version of terrorism.
It certainly works on me!
I get unsettled, spend too much time thinking about what upsets me, and then avoid participating.
Well, as my stepmother used to say..."Fi on you!" I will not be dissuaded from my home here! If I were her, I'd suggest that I simply ignore bad behavior so as not to reinforce it. So. Unless an anon poster has something particularly cogent to share, I'm simply not going to go there.
Wow. I feel so mature. Thanks Evelyn! (the step-mom who passed long ago.)
Marek, you are sooo right, both about the alerts and the fact that anyone outside the US would know of what overall significance our celebrities carry. And how sad is it that the news industry has become a who's who of white guys with bad ties?
Bj
USA - Wednesday, October 31, 2001 at 06:55:41 (PST)
Yeah. I agree, too, that these 'heightened alert' notifications by Ashcroft & Friends could be intended to keep us off balance. They are unnerving and they definitely increase my personal anxiety level, as I'm sure they do for most everyone else. If the warnings really are just intended to keep US citizen's support behind our military's actions though, it's a seriously flawed tactic because it will soon wear everybody out, emotionally, and end up achieving that 'little boy who cried Wolf!' status. Ultimately, of course, the alerts will likely again prove true, as there is no doubt that bin Laden has had plenty of time, followers, and money to put other attack plans in place, all intended to shake our confidence and damage our social infrastructure.
The most disturbing news for me personally, since September 11th, was the announcement today that a 61 year old female healthcare worker at a hospital in New York, having evidently had no connection whatsoever to the other cases found thus far, is in an ICU, on a respirator, and probably about to die of inhalation anthrax. One thing I became very aware of on the march, as I spoke to churches and community groups along the way, was the incredibly small number of 'burn beds' we actually had in the US, at that time. (These beds are on hospital units that are staffed with doctors and nurses who have been specifically trained to treat burned patients and, while those wackos at the War College were yakking about 'winnable nuclear wars', the US had just 1200 burn beds for the entire country -- and that limitation did not even take into consideration the fact that most of the country's hospitals would likely be totaled in a nuclear attack, anyway.)
If bioterrorists now turn their attacks on the healthcare system itself, services could collapse in much the same way as in a nuclear exchange. Doctors and nurses are easy to ignore while we're healthy, but they become vital when we're seriously ill, which is precisely why the Geneva Convention protects them in times of war. Terrorists, as we already know, are not bound by the Convention's protections and rules for ethical treatment of non-combatants.
So, that's my cheery topic for today's worries. What's your's? Anybody else out there getting as much relief and the occasional chuckle out of "The Daily Show", on the cable TV station "Comedy Central"? That show and Bill Maher's program, "Politically Incorrect" are helping me keep things in perspective these days. As with many ICU nurses, dark humor always helps me out in times of stress and crisis. Peace and hugs to you all. (8^>?
Frank Holmgren <peacegeek@hotmail.com>
Minneapolis, MN USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 23:31:38 (PST)
Interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76* Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct? Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention. Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it? B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would. Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today? B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire. Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [intégrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists? B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war? Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today. B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries. * There are at least two editions of this magazine; with the perhaps sole exception of the Library of Congress, the version sent to the United States is shorter than the French version, andthe Brzezinski interview was not included in the shorter version.
Bob Alei
USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 23:00:49 (PST)
Hi folks. Thanks to all for the ongoing dialog. I visit daily and appreciate most everything I read. I must admit, though, I get a little tired of folks who have to belittle others to get their points across. Mostly I'm speaking of anaonymous posters, but others do it sometimes too. I see no point in spending a lot of energy on that though. I do, however, want to share a rather lengthy post that I found interesting. If you hate those (sorry Ben and others) just skip the next one.
Bob Alei <BAleiHi@mediaone.net>
Fresno, CA USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 23:00:13 (PST)
marek- i am with you as far as being suspicious about the "heightened alert" warnnings. certainly a convenient way to keep americans on edge, and fearful, without having to show any evidence what-so-ever. my husband thinks i'm overly paranoid, but he is a more trusting soul than i, at least when it comes to expecting people in power to do the right thing. i do get bothered by the hostile posts i have seen here, more often than not by anon posters, and i dont know if there is an answer to that, but i dont think censoring/limiting/ id'ing them is it. just like on the walk, there are many of us, and that means many different ideas, and many ways of expressing them. that said, it does bother me to see the posts that seem to be attacks on others. i lurk and read here just about daily, but dont have much to contribute. the truth is i am avoiding thinking about this "war" as much as i can. my baby is 8 weeks old now, and she takes up most of my time and energy. i am loving being a mom, and i far prefer it to worrying about world events. it makes me feel like a cop-out, but its where i am at right now. peace to all nancy/kiwi
nancy <nemmiller@yahoo.com>
santa fe, nm USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 21:05:12 (PST)
Johnie, All great detectives have to make a mistake here and there, it helps to highlight their grander acheivements. : ) Must admit I am againstlimiting posts so...guess my vote is in. Although I do understand others concern for over this. - BJ Sending good vibes your way! (No matter how uncool it may be!) - Thank you Nora. - Julia, You go girl! (PS I'm getting off my duff and you should be receiving those CD's from me Soon). - James I agree, what will be the difference between the war on drugs and the war on terrorism? Don't know that we'll see one! Will our war on terrorism include attacking those terrorists groups in countrys that we support? One must wonder. (See, that's a thought provoking question. They differ greatly from verbal attacks. It's less abusive and keeps the focus on the topic and not how the words are said!) I must admit, I frequently avoid the annon posts. Usually they are full of attacks, refuse to participate in the real art of dialog, and from people who strength is to make others feel week. I've been witness to abuse, I no longer choose to participate. But God do I love a great debate! but annon people don't debate, they attack and hide! Humm Sounds like our foreign policy. Oh and by the way! Didn't the U.S. help the Taliban to establish itself? Just wondering! (OK I'm not wondering! I know our role in this! I just think we shouldn't be so pious and self-rightous.) - And just my two sense here. It's part jopke, but I mean it! To my way of thinking, the Anthrax folks are most likely american, because only Americans would think that Brokaw, Rather, and Jennings were important! And is anyone else wondering if these "Hightened Alert" messages from our government might just be a clever way to keeps us supporting this "war"? Certainly it suggests that we can't stop now or we'll be in bigger trouble. Just wondering.
Marek <Marekp@juno - uhmmm - .com>
Buffalo, USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 20:42:11 (PST)
Oy vey, I guess that must be my computer's time, since so do Shabtai's words read PST, oh well, so much for the detective in me. As for the plane that just flew by at 2:20, I lived here for about 12 years, sensitive to sounds, and I've never heard those sounds, I think it was a new invisible type of flying machine. Time to requestion again or perhaps I'm on to something???
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@oyvey-aol.com>
Ashland, OR USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 15:14:23 (PST)
Is Kandahar, Afghanistan situated in the location of Pacific Standard Time as Major Tom's quips seem to emanate from?
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@oyvey-aol.com>
Ashland, OR USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 15:09:25 (PST)
You know what, "Major Tom", it's not a control issue, it's a respect issue. When I post here, I always do so with my real name (and I used my pre-marriage name of Julia Gosztyla on the GPM, so now you REALLY know who I am, if indeed you were on the GPM at all), my real city, and my real email address (barring the little chunk to fool the spam-bots). That means if you have a gripe, quarrel, or question of me, or if you want to say "right on" or anything else, you can email me directly to say it. I'm open to active, honest dialogue. What you are doing is thumbing your nose at this community. I sincerely doubt that you are posting from Afghanistan, and there's no way for any of us to communicate with you except here. Get real. Post an email address, one that actually works and is read by a human being. Or I feel free to grant your comments very little credence. I shouldn't have let your comments from this morning upset me, I should have ignored them, since you didn't have the courage to come out with who you are. Which is a loss for all of us. I'm open to other opinions and different views, IF I am in an honest dialogue with another person, and perhaps you do have a few valid points. I'm not going to see them. I'm skipping anonymous posts from here on out.
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@yesiworkat_microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 14:02:03 (PST)
I appreciate Ghandi even more after having read this:
I have been a student of Ghandi's life and teachings for many years and I would not call him a pacifist. For one, he always conceded that nonviolence could only succeed if a majority of the people you oppose were essentially good. -- Evan Conroy
So many topics, and I have at least one opinion about each topic! I'll try and be (uncharacteristically) brief:
Regarding anonymous postings: This requires more discussion. My first posting here was anonymous, and I might not be posting here now if I hadn't had that option. Still, I think having a verified *real* email address would be a good idea.
-
Regarding wars against bad guys: Hey, it worked against the Nazis. True, many innocent German civilians died, but what's the alternative? <Sarcasm>Should we offer Anger Management Counseling to the Taliban?</Sarcasm>
James said (to Major Tom), "welcome to the permanent war on terrorism." Well, what's wrong with that? What about a permanent war on pedophilia? Why should we ever stop fighting evil with every ethical means at our disposal?
- Best wishes, BJ!
For an interesting take on a "peaceful" approach to Osama, click here.
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.no spam please, I'm Jewish.com>
Ann Arbor, MI USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 13:16:02 (PST)
AND, you are right about the permanent war on terrorism. The very phrase, war on terrorism, would make me laugh if it weren't so pathetic.
Terrorism, by it's very nature, cannot be 'stopped'by strategizing a war. We can be smarter and better world citizens in order to reduce the motivations for terrorism but we can no more predict every form of terror in order to safeguard against it than we can predict and protect against new viruses replicating on the planet. Or hackers.
There will always be someone looking for a way to express their anger and fear. Every code can be broken and every security system can be circumnavigated.
What we CAN do is be as thoughtful as we can about the way we live our lives and develop sane ways to be as safe, while developing the coping mechanisms to deal with the aftermath of things we cannot predict.
Think about it. If there was a way to end terrorism, once and for all, don't you think we'd have done so...SOMEwhere in human history?
Bj
USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 12:23:12 (PST)
Hey James-sweetie. When I read your message, I had this adorable image of the two of us holding hands, skipping along the information highway. I'm honored to do anything with you!
I agree about forcing id's within this community and I'm not sure how we'd be able to assertain anyone's true identity, what with all the fake email addresses available. I guess the only option we have is to not take the bait. I'm not sorry I did in this case but...
Bj
USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 12:11:05 (PST)
Nora, thank you. I understand you, and Thich Nhat Hanh. Peace is what we seek, while struggling to keep our heads above the surface in Life's tempestuous cauldron of pain, fear, suffering, and disillusionment.
Kim, you ask good questions. The trick is to not stop asking them, once you think you may have found the answers.
Bj, your story about Liz Marek has never graced my ear before. Thank you for sharing it as you have. I'll keep you in mind for that counseling session, but I'm going to wait until you've got a few more years of therapeutic experience under your belt.
Julia, like most of us, you need to work on those "control issues". There's more, I'm sure you know, to "freedom of expression" than hearing only what we want to hear. The Taliban just executed Mr. Haq and a number of other potential leaders who didn't care to view the world through their visciously controlled ideological lense. As bad as the American system might seem to its internal critics from time to time, there is always that "freedom of speech" thing built into it that allows us to express those misgivings without fear of immediate and unceremonious execution.
Deanna, you - like everyone here on this website - are capable of greater eloquence than you frequently demonstrate. It's a question of extending inward your focused investigation of the more profound images you want to express, as opposed to humming a bland refrain of platitudes and cliche`s.
From up here in the not friendly skys of Afghanistan, my view is that challenging the veracity of, or the sincerity within, the musings and expressions of others is not always mere "mockery". Useful solutions, to what may appear to be impossible problems, rarely arise from unchallenged thoughts.
Major Tom
Still circling above Kandahar, Afghanistan - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 11:44:50 (PST)
Hey BJ we posted together. Just for the record, I don't approve of limiting who posts here. Sounds too much like marcher ID checks. On the other hand, Shabtai "outed" the dude stealing our email addresses for spam: can we do the same for our anonymous visitors? I wouldn't be opposed to a warning stating that your true identity will be revealed if you post here.
j knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
lala, ca USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 10:40:19 (PST)
BJ, keep the helium handy tomorrow night. I want pictures. And Major Tom, welcome to the permanent war on terrorism. Feel safe? Get used to it, like the war on drugs. And talk to me in 10 years about "swift and permanent", assuming we still feel safe to have these talks online.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
lala, ca USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 10:34:51 (PST)
Major Tom, bless your heart. As angry as I could be about your message, I just can't muster it because you've given me a great opportunity to share something of profound importance to me, once again. For those of you who have heard this story, forgive the repitition.
I don't know if you know me, Major, but if you did, you would know that I was deeply and directly effected by Liz Marek's death. She was my very best friend and we were in the process of planning our futures as friends and business partners when she called and asked me to go with her and Bill Mack to London to see the Christmas lights. I had just helped them complete work on a documentary Liz was producing as part of Bill's performance art and the trip was a celebration for us. Because I had a lame job and a stupid excuse for not leaving it, the last thing I ever did in my beloved's life was disappoint her by calling to cancel the reservation she had made for me and by not getting on Pan Am 103. To this day, I wish I had.
When I went to Lockerbie to complete my history with Liz and to do lay-counseling for rescue workers, I learned one of the most important lessons of my entire life.
As I sat in a stairwell weeping after hours of working with other families' grief, an Anglican minister came to me. I thought he was there to comfort me, but instead, he needed to express his own fear and to tell me something he wanted me to 'go back and tell America'. So here I am, telling it for maybe the 300th time since then.
"To seek retribution would do nothing but add to the sum total of human suffering."
If the two men who are charged with killing my beloved friend are killed tomorrow, it will not be a swift and final end to anything but their lives. It will not bring Liz back to us. It will not stop terrorism and it sure as hell won't make me feel any better.
What makes me feel good is knowing that Liz lives on through my work and the way that I love everyone I can.
I understand being in pain, believe me. And I feel for you. If I knew who you were, I'd say come talk to me. It might help you release some of that anger. I know it isn't about this community or even about what you've read here regarding what you might consider fruzzy ideas of love and light. Whatever it IS about, I pray you find peace.
Bj <bjkt@innerstory_nospam.com>
Washington, DC USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 10:30:12 (PST)
I have been thinking about what "Major Tom" asked- why do I cry? I cry for more reasons than can be written or felt. I cry for the world. That perhaps sound silly although I truly do. I cry because the world collectively and continually chooses to grasp violence and destruction while so many of its people are sick, starving and dying. I cry for those who have so much hate and unhappiness in their heart that they are changed people. These people were born so sweet and precious- laughing and cuddling- so full of potential to bring joy and grace to this troubled planet. I cry for those people who have joined the ranks of those who hate and desire revenge, turning away in their pain and anger from the sensitive and forgiving people that they once were. And, yes, I cry for myself. I wake every morning with the realization that my tax dollars are going to create weapons of mass destruction. "Major Tom" I cry for people like you, who would rather mock and sneer at my pain (thereby adding to it) instead of giving me peaceful and healing ways to stop the tears. It's so damn easy for all of us to judge! I don't want to stop anonymous writings. I hope this message board continues to be a free forum. My hope is that those like Major Tom who write such angry and hate-filled posts re-read what they write and see in the mirror. And before you spew something about me looking into the mirror myself, I do and that's another reason I cry. My hope is that I move from immobile tears to loving and positive action. Nora, thank you for sharing the beauty of the words. They were and are so very welcome. Julia, I'm so happy for you! I didn't know you when you were 123 lbs although I have a very definite belief that you are FAR more beautiful now whatever your weight than you were at 18. It's so very clear by what you write that you have a simply GORGEOUS heart and spirit! I celebrate your journey to better health. Peace to all,
Deanna"Warts, Tears and All" Constable <dconstab@TakeThisPartOut_hotmail.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 10:15:53 (PST)
Major Tom, do you truely believe that we can put a "swift and permanent end to the source of our troubles"? And do it by means of such violent retaliation? History proves to us that violence and war only perpetuates itself and creates hatred. I feel sad for you for your obvious pain and grief. Please take a look at and deal with these primary feelings your experiencing instead of turning them into active anger. Nora, thanks for sharing that wonderful piece. Julia, I too would like to know more info about the people who are signing on and don't like the attack approach, however, I don't want to exclude folks or differing opinions. Congratulations on your health progress! BJ, I'm holding good thoughts for you around your job situation, and I do remember what you look like. You'll make a delightfully sweet munchkin mayor.
Kim SH <yowbap@spamsville_home.com>
Oly, WA USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 10:07:57 (PST)
Roberta,
I can't help but wonder if it's time to look into making the guestbook require an email address, city, and state. And maybe time to vet the entries to make sure they are from verifiable people, Marchers, or "family". I am so tired of the inflammatory anonymous messages that I am considering ditching this as one of my daily "must-read" pages. But of course, I want to hear what my GPM friends have to say, so I have to put up with the abuse each time I come to the page, just like everyone else.
I know this is a terrible spot for you to be in (as the decision-maker) so maybe we should have a discussion here about this issue. To me, the anonymous postings are usually just as rude as the people who stole sleeping bags. I feel like these people are inflicting violence upon us, and I bet they have a good laugh while they do it. The world has enough violence in it, and I would deeply appreciate this page not perpetuating that violence.
Nora, thanks for your response. It was moving and needed, but unfortunately, I am still feeling angry and upset about the post before yours. It's not about "white light" in my opinion, it's about JUSTICE. And not the kind of "justice" that some people think comes from a bomb dropped from the sky, either.
And on to a completely different topic, for those of you keeping track of my progress... I am down 48 lbs after 6 weeks, and I feel fantastic! Where I could barely walk 2 miles in an hour, I can now walk 3.5 miles in an hour and still feel ready for more! I'm certainly not back to my GPM form of 123 lbs (and will I ever be? I was 18 years old! LOL) but at least I feel I wouldn't embarrass myself on a Sunday afternoon walk anymore. :-)
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@yesiworkat_microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 07:55:54 (PST)
Ruby and I had a wonderful visit with the Kinczels in New York City last night, and I came to this page this morning to revel in our 'unity', to marvel at the love which abounds. It feels like I was smacked in the face, instead. I do not know who you are, Major Tom. As you see, I sign on with my name and even my home town. The only response I can muster is to paste in these beautiful words from one of my heroes, a poet and buddhist monk. I know due to formatting this will be a bit unwieldy, but it did make my heart feel softer as I read it. I hope it does your, too. REST IN PEACE by Vietnamese Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh I am a World Trade Center tower, standing tall in the clear blue sky, feeling a violent blow in my side, and I am a towering inferno of pain and suffering imploding upon myself and collapsing to the ground. May I rest in peace. I am a terrified passenger on a hijacked airplane not knowing where we are going or that I am riding on fuel tanks that will be instruments of death, and I am a worker arriving at my office not knowing that in just a moment my future will be obliterated. May I rest in peace. I am a pigeon in the plaza between the two towers eating crumbs from someone's breakfast when fire rains down on me from the skies, and I am a bed of flowers admired daily by thousands of tourists now buried under five stories of rubble. May I rest in peace. I am a firefighter sent into dark corridors of smoke and debris on a mission of mercy only to have it collapse around me, and I am a rescue worker risking my life to save lives who is very aware that I may not make it out alive. May I rest in peace. I am a survivor who has fled down the stairs and out of the building to safety who knows that nothing will ever be the same in my soul again, and I am a doctor in a hospital treating patients burned from head to toe who knows that these horrible images will remain in my mind forever. May I know peace. I am a tourist in Times Square looking up at the giant TV screens thinking I'm seeing a disaster movie as I watch the Twin Towers crash to the ground, and I am a New York woman sending e-mails to friends and family letting them know that I am safe. May I know peace. I am a piece of paper that was on someone's desk this morning and now I'm debris scattered by the wind across lower Manhattan, and I am a stone in the graveyard at Trinity Church covered with soot from the buildings that once stood proudly above me, death meeting death. May I rest in peace. I am a dog sniffing in the rubble for signs of life, doing my best to be of service, and I am a blood donor waiting in line to make a simple but very needed contribution for the victims. May I know peace. I am a resident in an apartment in downtown New York who has been forced to evacuate my home, and I am a resident in an apartment uptown who has walked 100 blocks home in a stream of other refugees. May I know peace. I am a family member who has just learned that someone I love has died, and I am a pastor who must comfort someone who has suffered a heart-breaking loss. May I know peace. I am a loyal American who feels violated and vows to stand behind any military action it takes to wipe terrorists off the face of the earth, and I am a loyal American who feels violated and worries that people who look and sound like me are all going to be blamed for this tragedy. May I know peace. I am a frightened city dweller who wonders whether I'll ever feel safe in a skyscraper again, and I am a pilot who wonders whether there will ever be a way to make the skies truly safe. May I know peace. I am the owner of a small store with five employees that has been put out of business by this tragedy, and I am an executive in a multinational corporation who is concerned about the cost of doing business in a terrorized world. May I know peace. I am a visitor to New York City who purchases postcards of the World Trade Center Twin Towers that are no more, and I am a television reporter trying to put into words the terrible things I have seen. May I know peace. I am a boy in New Jersey waiting for a father who will never come home, and I am a boy in a faraway country rejoicing in the streets of my village because someone has hurt the hated Americans. May I know peace. I am a general talking into the microphones about how we must stop the terrorist cowards who have perpetrated this heinous crime, and I am an intelligence officer trying to discern how such a thing could have happened on American soil, and I am a city official trying to find ways to alleviate the suffering of my people. May I know peace. I am a terrorist whose hatred for America knows no limit and I am willing to die to prove it, and I am a terrorist sympathizer standing with all the enemies of American capitalism and imperialism, and I am a master strategist for a terrorist group who planned this abomination. My heart is not yet capable of openness, tolerance, and loving. May I know peace. I am a citizen of the world glued to my television set, fighting back my rage and despair at these horrible events, and I am a person of faith struggling to forgive the unforgivable, praying for the consolation of those who have lost loved ones, calling upon themerciful beneficence of God/Yahweh/Allah/Spirit/Higher Power. May I know peace. I am a child of God who believes that we are all children of God and we are all part of each other. May we all know peace.
Nora <Nirmala@attglobal.net>
ny USA - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 07:17:35 (PST)
Are those tears falling for the 145 million Afghani men, women, and children alike, who've been oppressed by the tiny but brutal Taliban party for the past ten years?
Are they falling for the tens of thousands of Muslim women who have been raped, murdered, and/or forced to remain illiterate and powerless [not to mention their fathers, uncles, and brothers who have died, while daring to resist in hopeless efforts to protect them] - or for the hundreds of thousands of children orphaned and abandoned to survive or die, or be drafted and brainwashed, by these fanatical Taliban "warriors" who are now struggling to fight off the growing opposition forces advancing on Kabul?
Are they falling for the 7,000 victims of the September 11th attacks, in our own country, and for the hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of friends, children, and family members directly involved with and affected by the loss of those victims?
Do your tears fall for the hundreds of thousands of unsuspecting, unarmed, most often decent and peaceloving victims [like the GPM's own Liz Marek], who have been wantonly slaughtered and maimed, in the name of high minded ideals and fanatical ideologies, shared in a world of six billion by no more than a few hundred thousand political nuts and extremists?
Or are your tears only for terrorists, murderers, and psychopaths - [and, of course, maybe just a couple for yourself and for your confusion, and for the social voice you really wish you had, but do not]?
Naturally, there's no need to answer these "questions". You can just write me off as some "fascist" or "war-monger" who refuses to see the "truth", as you "know" it to be. They're really just statements about what I think you're overlooking in your assessment of the world we're living in.
One way to answer, if you really wanted to, would be to just reiterate the usual glib and cliche`ed litany about sending out "good vibes" and "white light", or fighting the conspiracy of "corporate greed" and "power hungry capitalism", etc.
A better approach, though, might be to try to understand, with some real depth and compassion, the pain and fear and suffering and anger that drives the surviving victims of terrorism - which, today, in one way or another means "all of us" - to want to put a swift and permanent end to the source of our troubles.
Major Tom
Somewhere, high above Kandahar, Afghanistan - Tuesday, October 30, 2001 at 03:50:24 (PST)
Darn Bj! That's what I was planning on being! Now it looks like I'll have to dress up like Shirley Temple, YET AGAIN!! My tap shoes are sooooo worn! Short women rule! (The question of course is "Rule what???" :) One of my friends talked about dressing like an envelope with talcum power trailing out from underneath... funny in a strange way. What an insane world this is. I was driving on Friday and listened to NPR talking about cluster bombs that are now being used. I had to pull over yet again and cry. This nightmare is lasting too long. I want to wake up.
Deanna "You think You're Short" Constable <dconstab@TakeThisPartOut_hotmail.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 14:44:54 (PST)
Oooh. Thanks guys! That is exactly what I would have hoped for. And Deana, as for what I look like...it might help to know I'm playing the Munchkin Mayor for Halloween!
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 13:44:30 (PST)
I'm with you, BJ. I'm picturing you at the job, content, serene, a powerful force of love and harmony, respected and appreciated by coworkers and clients alike, secure and happy.
marc polonsky <marcwordsmith@sfo.DOES THIS REALLY HELP; THEY'VE ALREADY "HARVESTED" ME. com>
El Cerrito , CA USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 12:27:33 (PST)
Hey there Bj! I am picturing you (even though I don't know what you look like :) in your dream job, smiling from such happiness that you just can't contain it! May it come to pass! If we all worked at our dream job- how much happier and productive would our country be... Hello to all on this board!
Deanna <dconstab@TakeThisPartOut_hotmail.com>
Richmond, CA USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 10:32:49 (PST)
"IT" would be doing...ugh. My fingers fly fast and erratically!
Bj <bjkt@innerstory_youknowhwattodo.com>
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 06:22:38 (PST)
On a completely seperate note, here is another call for prayers and/or wishes for good luck. You all really came through for me during my board exam anxiety! There is a possibility that I will be offered my dream job within the next month. I describe it as a Counselor Troi position, for all you Star Trek fans. I would be exactly what I need doing things I feel good about doing...AND the company is in the process of being acquired, which could spoil the whole thing. So, here is my request: please visualize me getting the perfect work, and the perfect money in harmonious ways for all concerned in perfect love and perfect trust. Thank you so much! And are there things going on in your life that I could support?
Bj <bjkt@innerstory_youknowhwattodo.com>
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 06:21:24 (PST)
It's as if everyone I know has decided to hybernate at once. I can understand my mailbox being empty because the mail carriers (who, bless them, weren't all that efficient to begin with) have every reason to be cautious in my neighborhood...but my email box TOO? I didn't think anthrax can infect a keyboard but it seems the very thought of it can infect everything. One of my best friends works in the Capital Building (as a reporter) and others work in the Senate and House buildings. Talk about nerve wracking. I'm stressed for them but I'm not worried for myself in this context. No Cipro or gas masks for me. I might be whistling int he dark but I just can't see panicking about this. At least not yet.
Bj <bjkt@innerstory_youknowhwattodo.com>
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 29, 2001 at 06:16:58 (PST)
Hey all, just thought I'd drop a quick hello. Nothing interesting to say but always glad to stop in and see who else has been here. Later!
Marek <marekp@-don'tknowwhattomakeup-juno.com>
USA - Sunday, October 28, 2001 at 20:15:11 (PST)
Anyone heard any news from the World Peace Walk which took off yesterday?? October 27-Nov 17th NYC-DC - www.worldpeacewalk.org. Jun-san will be leading Nipponzan Myohiji 2002 Hiroshima Flame Interfaith Pilgrimage - A walk to Stop Star Wars Seattle - NYC Jan 15- May 13 2002 - www.dharmawalk.org
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@whereforarttho-aol.com>
Ashland, OR USA - Sunday, October 28, 2001 at 09:10:29 (PST)
Okay, where is everyone? Joe, ... what was it like at "ground zero"? How did it effect you? Hello to all. Hugs and peace --
Jeanine (Malito) <dsoper@clipper.net>
USA - Saturday, October 27, 2001 at 11:19:43 (PDT)
Thanks for the Washington Post link on al Qaeda in Europe: very sobering stuff. Very. An important piece to read, to get a bigger picture of what's coming down.
Lynn <welcome@removethesewordsolympus.net>
WA USA - Wednesday, October 24, 2001 at 14:23:40 (PDT)
Last weekend I saw Gret Gentile in Philadelphia and she took me to a Pete Seeger Concert. It was sold out and she pleaded with the guy at the door, "We were on the Great Peace March and Pete came and played for us and we walked across the country and then Russia and we just have to get in!!!" The guy let us in for free to sit on the floor. Thank you Goddess! Pete Seeger is 82 and still playing his banjo for peace and social justice. The entire evening was a blessing. I am now in New York City. I plan on going downtown today to see the devastation. The former site of the World Trade Center has become a sacred place. A burial ground for thousands of souls. I will send out my energy to the healing effort underway in all parts of the planet. I am more sure than ever that all things in life and death are connected and all things posess power and spirit. I will pray for balance, harmony and wholeness. I will cry. I will think of my sisters and brothers from the GPM and send out love. Blessings to all our relations. Thank you Gret!
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.DRUBAWANTSTOHELP.org>
USA - Wednesday, October 24, 2001 at 07:25:02 (PDT)
A little poem by Calvin Trillin: By night our missiles rain on them/By day we drop them bread./They should be grateful for the food -/Unless, of course, they're dead.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Wednesday, October 24, 2001 at 00:03:26 (PDT)
I found it helpful.
BIL COLBURN
USA - Tuesday, October 23, 2001 at 14:06:46 (PDT)
For any of you who still happen to believe that some 'corporate' journalists may have integrity and useful investigative reporting skills that they can call upon from time to time, the following Washington Post article about Al Qaeda's international terrorist cell structure may prove to be both informative and interesting. These guys are serious and the US is definitely not their only target. It is titled:
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31080-2001Oct21.html
Whether we employ violent or nonviolent approaches to resolving this problem, we cannot effectively confront an opponent we do not understand. Accurate sources of information really are essential in the struggle for peace.
Hope you find it helpful. ;>)
TNH <yeahyou@let'slearneverythingwecan.org>
Bliss Falls, DC USA - Tuesday, October 23, 2001 at 00:36:35 (PDT)
Much thanks for your kindness Marc! Much warmth to all you gentlemen and gentlewomen reading this. Also to you gentlechildren and gentlebabies in the house, all around the globe.
BIL COLBURN <bilcolburn@yahoo.com>
Los Angeles, YA USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 15:50:54 (PDT)
Marc and BJ I hear you. Let your love flow.....
Kim S.H. <yowbap@home.com>
Oly, WA USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 14:12:07 (PDT)
Thanks, Karen, for providing a door through which I, somewhat abashed, can reenter the conversation. I do express my frustration too stridently on this page, but where else if not here? You are the people, after all, with whom I marched (yes, we all argued too) nine months for PEACE! And look where we are fifteen years later. Where is David Mixner now that we really need him? It’s a million times more frightening today than it was in 1986. (Who could imagine anything like this back when we walked across the country?) What kind of peace march do we need today, and where?
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 11:02:33 (PDT)
Marc, What a lovely sentiment. I too wish the anons would simply check in with their own names. I'm pretty sure they'd be surprised by the welcome they'd receive. As for forgiveness. Bless your heart, I've been doing the same thing in my life. Making amends...taking every opportunity to love and be loved. It seems that, in the face of so much uncertainty, opening my heart even wider is the only thing over which I truly have control. I've done things and thought things that I've never have before and feel more alive, even in my fear.
Bj <bjkt@innerstory_the most important story there is.com>
USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 07:18:27 (PDT)
There is so much alienation in our world, even amongst us on the guestbook page. I feel that our anonymous posters are the most alienated among us, and need the most unconditional love. Teach, TNH, and various anonymies, you don't have to be clever to be loved. One day, when you feel comfortable, check in with your real names, and none of us need ever be the wiser. I wish that these trying days, when so many of us are feeling sick at heart, both because we feel less physically safe than we did six weeks ago and because we are sick about the bombing of precious innocent lives (including those of children) in Afghanistan, would break our hearts open and render us humble. If there's anyone reading this whom I've ever hurt in any way, I am sorry, and I ask forgiveness. And I just want to say to Bil: your words and your presence on this page are healing too!
marc
USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 02:02:38 (PDT)
Hmmm .... No, Julia. I believe the correct characterization of Mr. Walker's little sketch would better be 'allegory', than 'diatribe'. I shared it primarily for it's reference to Heisenberg and his "Uncertainty Principle", as my guess is that he (Heisenberg) is probably howling in his grave at the deft expropriation of his work in theoretical quantum physics to explain ideologically determined social and interpersonal dynamics.
Certainly, my intent was not to trigger yet another bout of personal angst for you, with regard to your previously disclosed abusive childhood religious experiences. Most of us, who do not believe in 'gods' or 'goddesses', probably have had a number of equally unpleasant encounters with religious zealotry and manipulation in our lives. The author, however, is clearly not a particularly religious individual, as his willingness to write as if he were "GOD", him-or-herself, is clearly as blasphemous an act as any committed by any of the other physicists he names.
Besides... didn't you find it charmingly synchronous that he would not only be discussing the very subject that Karen was alluding to, but also that he would be named "John Walker"? For, after all, are we not all "John, or Julia, Walkers" in this closely-knit little family?
I must admit, though, that Holly's lyrics and vision are certainly much more exciting and satisfying than any number of arid exchanges on subjects like theoretical physics and quantum mechanics, so I do concur with Evan. Bury the bums in our dusty old archives! Perhaps we could agree to confine all postings here to only those that pertain to happy thoughts, babies, nonviolence, and our dreams for the future ...
TEACH
USA - Monday, October 22, 2001 at 01:48:51 (PDT)
Thank you Julia.
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@don't we all hate spam yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Sunday, October 21, 2001 at 18:14:24 (PDT)
I feel the need to push this anonymous diatribe by "Teach" down the page. Let's try this...
The Great Peace March
By Holly Near
Ancient eyes are watching in the night
The stars come out to guide the way
The sun still shines despite the clouds
And the dawn is dusk is dawn is dusk is day
Farmers rise and dream to feed the world
The world awakes to feed the heart
Hearts beat while a thousand flags are waving
And the farmer sees a dream has played a part
Chorus:
We will have peace, we will because we must
We must because we cherish life
And believe it or not, as daring as it may seem
It is not an empty dream, to walk in a powerful path
Neither the first nor the last Great Peace March
Life is a great and mighty march
Forever, for love and tor life
On the Great Peace March
Are you black like night or red like clay
Are you gold like sun or brown like earth
Grey like mist or white like moon
My love for you is the reason for my birth
Peace can start with just one heart
From a small step to leaps and bounds
A walk becomes a race for time
And a brave child calls out from the crowd
Chorus
The Great Peace March, is available as a children's book illustrated by Lisa Desimini, and is recorded on the CD: Musical Highlights
© 1986 Hereford Music (ASCAP)
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@windows_xp_is_out_thursday!_microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Sunday, October 21, 2001 at 13:51:05 (PDT)
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@windows_xp_is_out_thursday!_microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Sunday, October 21, 2001 at 13:41:10 (PDT)
Einstein, Heisenberg, and Tipler
9th August 1995
Einstein, Heisenberg, and Tipler, after equal invariant intervals in purgatory, find themselves before the Throne of God.
As a man, they exclaim, "What did I do to merit an eternity down (brrrrr) there"?
God thought for a moment; when you're omnipresent in spacetime there's no need for haste. He turned first to Einstein.
"Albert," he said, "you showed your species My creation in its most elegant form, law without Law. Then, inflamed by wartime passion, you urged the transformation of your discovery into a weapon of mass destruction."
Einstein shuffled his feet and nodded subtly. He resisted the temptation to stick his tongue out. God turned His omniscient Eyes toward Heisenberg.
"Werner, you discovered that I do play dice, and you glimpsed that I have to if anything interesting's going to happen--your last words were, `I will ask Him why there is turbulence'. I will answer you, `So there can be Heisenberg'. But you stayed in Germany, Werner! You worked on a reactor for Hitler; you taught physics to brown-shirted Nazi thugs. You'll recall that my Son is Jewish."
"Frank, Frank, Frank," God continued, "didn't you read my book? I read yours, you know. Does the phrase `Thou shalt have no other gods before me' ring a bell? How about `I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending'? You not only wanted to have another God before Me, you wanted to be Him. And the money, Frank...do you know how piddling an advance I got for the Bible?. And you assumed causality--you Frank! You should know me better than that."
Tipler, almost defiant, raised his head and fixed God with a cold stare. "Why are there singularities in Your universe?"
"Because there are things I don't want you to know," God responded calmly.
Heisenberg, his dying question answered, remained silent, pondering the choices he'd made during his life on Earth.
Einstein seized the moment, "Look, Old One", he said, "physics is local. You made it that way; I figured it out. But why is there that spooky action-at-a-distance nonlocality in quantum mechanics?"
God chuckled. Even experiencing all of spacetime at once, such events were rare. "Albert, your greatest talent has always been not finding the right answer--anybody could do that--but asking the right question. Your generation learned physics assuming I was a great watchmaker; you destroyed that notion, but most of you died off before it became evident what I was. I create abstract systems from pure information, Albert. I'm a programmer.
"Quantum nonlocality is a bug."
God turned to Saint Peter. "Einstein and Heisenberg go to Heaven. Send Tipler to the massive rotating cylinder to try again. Next case."
God hated these Judgement Days; he couldn't wait (to the extent that's possible for an omnipresent being) to get to back to his craps game with Wotan, Jove, and Shiva. Saint Peter looked up from his infinite scroll, "Fourth Commandment: blasphemy--eternal damnation. Send in Lederman and Hawking".
What was it about these physicists, God wondered, as they approached the Throne.
TEACH
USA - Sunday, October 21, 2001 at 08:58:06 (PDT)
Scientific basis for nonviolence as a practical method: (especially for Gene!) The Heisenberg uncertainty priciple and recent discoveries in quantum mechanics has shown that even to OBSERVE a subatomic particle is to change it. Even more surprising, the intention of the observor has an effect on the results of the experiment. So, James, you postulated a situation similar to the one often used to challenge a philosophy of nonviolence "what if someone was about to murder your child, would you kill that person?" This is often held up as the "litmus test" to see if a person is really nonviolent. Personally, I think that no one can say what they would do in a situation like that, especially if there is no time to de-escalate the situation, what comes out of us in crisis is a result of so many previous experiences. But there is a transforming power that can be tapped into, and that has been used successfully in many situations of personal self-defense, (there is a documentary -- of people who describe their real-life experiences) There are no guarantees. If you are a black-belt, or if you carry a gun, there are no guarantees that you will be able to "save" yourself or others, (although the NRA would like you to believe that the hijackings wouldn't have occurred if the passengers had been armed.) Likewise there are no guarantees that a nonviolent approach would be successful. But there is a track record of nonviolent approaches being successful in such cases. These tactics have involved principles such as: taking the initiative in the situation, since sometimes the victim is in a stronger mental state than the attacker; expressing genuine concern for the attacker's well-being and possible consequences of the intended action; observing and addressing the hurt person within; being unwilling to cause harm; using humor; changing the "script" the attacker has planned out, using surprising responses; using problem-solving; and on and on. Yes, all of this presupposes that there is time for a response. And no, this does not blame those who have been victims, because every situation is unique. But everyone hears only the crimes that were committed. The evening news does not highlight the crimes that were de-fused or even prevented by alert, skilled, dedicated, compassionate intervention. So we grow up with a cultural bias that nonviolence is a nice "soft" philosophy, for children and flowers...but it wouldn't work in extreme situations. Yet, history has shown it highly effective in very extreme situations. And many times, it has worked precisely FOR those people who were willing to die rather than kill. As is true in quantum physics...perhaps their intention influenced the outcome. Love, Karen Tracy
ktracy@dnaco.net <ktracy@dnaco.net>
oh USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 22:41:48 (PDT)
Dova is climbing stairs and waving like she's a princess on a Rose Parade float. She also growls like a little bear. I'm a happy mom, but unhappy citizen. Here is the start of a letter to my congressperson from someone else. These paragraphs talk about the oil factor in the current war and make references to other sites: Dear Congressman Inslee: I was very disturbed to learn through the alternative press this past week that there is an apparent underlying motive for our aggressive attack on Afghanistan: the replacement of the Taliban authority with a stable government in order to allow the construction of two pipelines from the Caspian Sea oil field to Pakistan, India and the Gulf region, as presented in the two attached articles: Questions Arise About Role of Oil in "War on Terrorism" http://www.indymedia.org/ The New Great Game: Oil Politics in Central Asia http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11692
Roberta
USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 22:38:38 (PDT)
I enjoy reading all the thoughtful posts. And your opinions have inspired me to share this information, for the benefit of those who might not know it. There are organizations that have been studying and teaching nonviolence for over a hundred years. (sorry Gene, the only credible nonviolence training organizations I know of, are spiritually centered.) From this body of experiences, this track record of putting peace into practice, has come some basic principles. 1. Peace is a verb. Being peaceful does not mean doing-nothing on the one hand, or carrying protest placards on the other. It means being trained to intervene in a conflict situation, with self-control, discipline and skill. 2. Violence tends to escalate unless some intervention is made. 3. The same skills and nonviolent principles that apply on the personal level, also apply on the community, city, state, national, and international level. Principles such as shared power, fair and just access to resources, having a worthy purpose, mission, or goal, having in place and using conflict resolution methods and systems...and -- very important -- proper training BEFORE a conflict arises. I find that teaching in this field renews my hope with each class! I see people finding their power as they learn to take action in ways that solve problems and that sometimes transform entire conflict situations. Love, k
ktracy <ktracy@dnaco.net>
OH USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 21:51:30 (PDT)
Gosh, what synchronicity. I woke up this morning thinking about our dependence on oil, no kidding, and then I check the website and there are these totally same-wavelength posts from Julia and Kim!! Bo Lozoff of the Human Kindness Foundation has written that the most radical activism we can engage in is to simplify our lives: consume less, use less energy. On that score, I can't help but feel that VP Cheney's statement this year about conservation perhaps being a "personal virtue" but not anything that could seriously address our energy needs--that statement was just evil. Just awful. And of course he has credibility with millions, because he's VP, and so they'll think, "Well, after all, it doesn't really matter that much what I do."
On a happier note, a few months ago, my wife Eve had the idea to set up a clothesline in our backyard, after she read that the dryer consumes a whole lot more energy than any other household appliance. So we've been drying our clothes out on the line, and--this is no joke--our electric bill went down about 35-40%!! Better yet, we like the way the clothes feel after they've been dried on the line. It's like they have this natural earthy vibe, like they've absorbed the weather and it feels nice on our skin. They come off the line a little stiff, but that goes away quickly. And of course, the clothesline doesn't wear out our clothes like the dryer does.
marc
USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 11:29:03 (PDT)
Julia, the US being dependent on Russia for oil sounds like it could be an interesting relationship, but I'm afraid we'd get in there and try to run their show too. I like the idea of us becomming less dependent on oil, use alternative means to keep us going. I might even turn my '62' Ford Falcon (upgraded runs on unleaded fuel @ about 25 miles to the gallon)into a planter, for a vehicle powered with solar panels. I know some folks, in rainy Olympia, that are trying to drive as little as possible, and, instead, ride bikes. One man with two small sons has a train of bikes; his recumbent bike, attached to a small two wheeler, attached to what looks like a small covered wagon. They get around this way, packing rain gear just in case.
Kim Salerno Hunter <yowbap@home.com>
Oly, WA USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 10:05:07 (PDT)
So what do you all think of the somewhat-underreported news that we plan on shifting the bulk of our oil imports from the Middle East to Russia? My first reaction: FANTASTIC! It will hopefully take some of the pressure off the situation in the ME if it causes us to withdraw troops as we feel less "need" to be there to defend our interests. And it will also hopefully help the economy of Russia, though I hesitate to say that it will help the average person there... I doubt that the government lets things trickle down that much. Still, eventually, maybe the schools and hospitals, etc., will be improved with oil money.
There's just something so rich about becoming dependent on the very people we used to loathe more than anyone else. (Ignoring the true fact that we are all interdependent, whether we like each other or not). To my mind, the increased trade can only be good for both sides.
Of course, the real answer is to change the US organism so that it's not oil pumping through our veins. Hold up your hand if you drive a Ford Explorer or larger... hmmm... I see... well, I doubt we're going to find a way to change that situation any time soon, especially with George W. and Dick in the White House. I feel we've missed a real opportunity under Clinton and Gore.
Speaking of Gore... how many of you voted for him? (hands) How many of you are now deeply and quietly pleased that he is NOT in office right now? I have no hesitation is saying that I voted for him, happily, and now I am VERY happy that he is not in office. I know he would have handled things beautifully as he is very intelligent, but I'm not sure how he would have avoided war and I'm glad the blood's not on his hands. Perhaps my view is very naive, being young and all :-) but this is where I'm coming from these days.
Hope everyone is enjoying the weather you're getting (crisp and cool in our case, wonderful) and that you are well and at peace.
P.S. My next car will be the gas/electric hybrid Toyota Sienna minivan when they come out in 2003. Until then, I drive my Toyota Camry as little as possible, and carpool every single day. If there wasn't a toddler to take to daycare in the picture, I would still be on the bus, which has excellent service here (King County/Seattle).
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 03:35:00 (PDT)
I'm gratefully listening. The healing energy that can be communicated here feels helpful, especially now.
BIL COLBURN <bilcolburn@yahoo.com>
USA - Saturday, October 20, 2001 at 01:06:23 (PDT)
Evan, I don't think it's either/or. I think it's a complicated and mysterious question--what the terrorists' motives are. Bin Laden has been very explicit about what he wants--U.S. military out of Saudi Arabia. He's been saying it for years. I'm sure many Arabs find our presence there offensive, some more than others. I imagine that even if many terrorists have religious convictions to the effect that we all deserve to die, they might be less motivated to act on those beliefs if we weren't so in-their-face and on their land, for the sake of controlling the oil there. And I know you know (probably a lot better than I do, because you are more historically well-informed than I), U.S. policy in the mid-east has done a great deal to ferment religious extremism. My understanding of Iran's history, for example, is that Iran had a relatively moderate ruler in the 50s, before the Shah. Our CIA infiltrated and toppled that government in order to install the Shah, who oppressed the people, flagrantly offended cultural tradition, and brought in a lot of western influence and western business. The "karmic" result of all this came to fruition in the late 70s, when the Shah was deposed, ushering in the reign of the Ayatollahs. I imagine that Iran today is still a much more religiously conservative nation than it might have been had the US left it alone.
Marc Polonsky <marcwordsmith@sfo.no spam please com>
El Cerrito, CA USA - Friday, October 19, 2001 at 23:22:23 (PDT)
Kim, it's always great to see you here, neighbor. Thanks for your story and your thoughts. That story has a lot of lessons in it for me. Joe, I loved your letter and your post. I only disagree on one point and I think we have to agree to disagree. I don't believe these acts of terror and murder were carried out by people wanting a change in mid east policy. I think they were carried out by people who want nothing less than our conversion to their beliefs or our death.
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@don't we all hate spam yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Friday, October 19, 2001 at 12:33:55 (PDT)
What I didn't say yesterday is that I find the vast majority of posts on this site to be thoughtful, kind, smart, passionate, loving and frequently funny. I'm so glad this message board exists.
Lorien <yenooc@worldnet.att.REMOVETHIS.net>
SF, CA USA - Friday, October 19, 2001 at 09:39:49 (PDT)
It is a beautiful sunny morning on the East Coast. Thanks for your thoughts on this page - love to you all from me.
Ben Atherton Zeman <benz@smoc.org>
Framingham, MA USA - Friday, October 19, 2001 at 06:21:20 (PDT)
Wow! Interesting thoughts and considerations from all of you. I have strongly taken a stand against retaliatory violence. Simply, to respond with violence only continues the cycle of violence, and promotes the growth of hatred. I also believe the death penalty is wrong; unresolved energy does not cease to exist. However, I often ask myself how I would respond if my child was attacked or killed by another. I could imagine feeling a gamut of emotions; I could imagine wanting to kill the offender. I hope that I would experience these feelings, and then move beyond to a place of healing, both for myself and the offender, and act from this stance. I do have an experience from my childhood that has stayed with me. It was during the late sixty's when there was alot of racial violence happening. Walking home from elementary school, I often walked past numerous encirclements around fist fights. I disliked fights, and especially disliked the spectators cheering them on. One day, I walked past a group of girls viciously screaming, "Get her! Kill her!" I felt a little curious, but it was also very creepy. When I got home, some of the neighbor kids ran up to our house and told us that it was my sister (even telling this story all these years later, I am crying) that was in that circle getting beaten up. The girls cut her leg with a pair of scissors. The offending girls then had the audacity to come and stand outside of our home and taunt us. For the first, and only time in my life, I wanted to get them, kill them, I don't know what, it was illogical. A group of people had to forcefully hold me back. Thirty-some-odd years later, I know that I have developed better anger management skills, but I also know that I have the ability to strike. I have also not been hit so close to my heart since. The attacks on folks here and in Afganistan have me feeling overwhelmingly numb. I can't take in the reality of it without feeling the sheer insanity of the actions of all the offenders. I feel I have no choice but to consciously worked towards responding to conflicts with sane peaceful resolutions to help promote a cycle of love, respect and peace.
Kim Salerno Hunter <yowbap@home>
WA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 23:37:34 (PDT)
Thanks, Evan for your kind words. I love you very much also. My problem with anger is like an alcoholic's problem with liquor. It is forever, but I am striving to be in a state of recovery. My Men's Group is heatedly addressing many of the issues that we are discussing here at the GPM. Below is part of a letter that I wrote to the guys in my group. Hopefully it is of interest and relevant to our discussion here. ___________________________________________________________ I am quite clear and sorry that I was shouting last night and I would have liked for the meeting go on for a while until it could have ended on a more conciliatory note. Alas... I still love and respect each and every guy in our group and look forward to more intense dialogue with you. I do believe that people perform evil acts but not that people are evil. People of course are responsible for their acts and should be punished and rewarded accordingly. I also believe that nobody is beyond redemption. The terrorism that occurred on Sep 11 was definitely aimed at the symbols of America. However, I think that the stated aims of the terrorists are more related toward changing US involvement in the Middle East(Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel/Palestine) than to the direct destruction of the American way of life. For me the real answers to Sep 11 are bringing the terrorists to justice via the institutions of international law and ensuring the safety and security of American citizens. Yet, I see precious little effort being expended to ensure our safety and security. My recent airline flight with an open cockpit door confirmed that feeling for me. Why haven't cockpit doors been secured? Why are armed marshals not flying on every flight, except for those lucky flights into and out of DC National? Why are chemical spectrometers not being used to scan mail? We pursued justice through the courts and the UN in the case of Pan Am 103; why not in the case of Sep 11? (Thank you, James.) A rational response to the violence of Sep 11 would involve an attempt to understand the causes of that violence and address the causes. What we are doing in Afghanistan may kill the terrorists responsible for Sep 11 and may also create thousands more terrorists who will be willing and eager to die while killing more of us. The core causes of MidEast terrorism are not being addressed. To me that does not seem like a rational solution to the problem. I am all for self-defense and the more aggressive the better, but killing this generation of terrorists without addressing the conditions that create them will undoubtedly lead to a new and more desperate generation of terrorists to come. I am not opposed to all violence. I am not opposed to all warfare. I believe in self-defense. However, I believe that our current military strategy will not bring us our desired results.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.Dr.Uba.org>
USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 16:05:59 (PDT)
Thanks for the "upgrade" Evan. Does this mean that Ghandi would advocate killing in self defense, unlike, say, the Dalai Lama? Would he himself? Are there "official" definitions of pacifism that include these fine points or are they defined by, well, us? There's a buddhist story that's been debated for centuries, about a monk who kills a pirate to save a boat load of people from rape and murder. One school of thought is that he was wrong and shouldn't have done it. The other is that his act was noble even though (or perhaps BECAUSE) he was set back big time in the karma department. Maybe this stuff is off topic or too nit-picky to be relevent to todays world...but it seems important for me to map out my beliefs as clearly as possible since my beliefs are, in a way, on the line at the moment. And you are lovely cartographers to compare maps with.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 14:06:35 (PDT)
Joe, as always I enjoy your posts and admire your heart and thinking. Perhaps it is just my perception, but I believe you have grown tremendously in the years since the march. I admired you then, but always felt there was an angry streak in you. That does not appear to be there anymore. James and Shabtai, thank you for saying some of the things I felt uncomfortable saying in this forum. I do want to take exception to one thing you said, James. You refer to Ghandian pacifism. I have been a student of Ghandi's life and teachings for many years and I would not call him a pacifist. For one, he always conceded that nonviolence could only succeed if a majority of the people you oppose were essentially good. People following a belief system that requires the death of those who do not agree are not essentially good in my opinion. He also stated that nonviolence was the only option if you faced overwhelming force. Taking on an army with a peashooter will get you killed, but standing bravely in front of a tank may change hearts and minds. Ghandi supported military action against Hitler because he believed that Hitler and his cadre would never respond to nonviolence. As for the bombing tactic, right or wrong, it is our military's strategy to reduce casualties on our side to virtually zero like desert storm. They want no repeats of Vietnam. So they bomb everything until there's nothing left to oppose ground forces. I don't defend their actions, but I say it to help us all understand that they are not merely insane or extremely violent. It is a philosopy of preferring the death of innocents on the other side to any deaths among "our" soldiers. It is not an honorable tactic, but an understandable one. One thing I hope we can all do is bear witness. Most Americans have no concept or understanding of the fact that Baghdad, a city of four million at the time, was the most bombed city in history during desert storm, more than Hiroshima or Nagasaki or Dresden, Germany in WWII. I believe the best hope for those of us in the peace camp is to continue education to try and humanize us to those in the arab world. I believe (and like most Americans, my opinions are probably ill informed about the arab world) that the majority of the arab world does have many beefs with us, some legitimate, but that they do not wish wholesale death upon us. The more we can do to humanize our people and our culture and especially the victims of this brutal attack, the better our chances of dealing with a majority who are "essentially good". Then nonviolence will stand a chance of working.
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@don't we all hate spam yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 13:34:50 (PDT)
Ummm, I just read my post again... did I just sort of swear in it too? I have TWO Krispy Kreme donuts coursing through my body (one was jelly-filled which as you all know is extra potent). My apologies. I'll just sit here in my sugar bliss and not type :)
Deanna "Swearing Like a Sailor" Constable
USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 11:42:43 (PDT)
By the way, dear friends, please don't take my upper case letters for yelling. I don't know how to do any programming whatsoever. I'd use italics if I could program it that way. :(
Deanna <dconstab@is_it_hotmail.com>
Oakland, Ca USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 11:28:29 (PDT)
I agree with you, James. I keep getting stuck on this "War Against Terrorism" theme that's spewed at us in this country. Does anyone TRULY believe that those bombs are killing terrorists?? How far does that definition, "terrorist," play out to? I see this as a "catch-all" slogan that is supposed to placate all of us who want justice for what happened. Hell, people, I'm old enough to know a few things: 1. Life is NOT fair and justice, if it arrives at all, is very sweet although elusive, 2. I don't see today's bombs bringing anything but bad karma on all of us and 3. in the search for justice, this country has turned in on itself- hysteria and bullying seems to be the current "appropriate" responses. We are in an insane country right now. We truly are. WE ARE OUR OWN TERRORISTS now! I think it was you, James, who had a great slogan "Justice without War." I'm going to be making a sign and standing on Market Street here in San Francisco at lunch time with that slogan- it fits my thinking to a tee. Beyond all this craziness- Julia! Congratulations!!! I personally understand your struggle and commend you for your openness. Fight on, girlfriend, I'm there with ya! Love and tolerance abound this day and tomorrow-
Deanna <dconstab@is_it_hotmail.com>
Oakland, Ca USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 11:26:21 (PDT)
Well, I have to agree Shabtai, and confess that I am not a true Gandhian pacifist, in that if someone's intention was to kill me or my family, and there was NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE, I would take that persons life, without hesitation. My point here is that I do not believe that the war in Afghanistan in any way protects us from terrorism, but rather, increases our danger. To kill innocent people out of vengeance, rather than actually address the issue of our real safety and security is not only counter productive- its morally reprehensible. This has nothing to do with the intent of the terrorists or whether they can be persuaded of anything. The peace community is being attacked on all sides now for allegedly wanting to "make peace" with the terrorists rather than seek justice. I'm sure there are folks out there who are that naive. I haven't met them.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 10:49:51 (PDT)
Okay, maybe it's not respectful to call posts xenophobic. What I mean is, I didn't agree with everyone I heard speak around me on the Peace March, either, but I know everyone's opinions expanded my knowledge of humans, and I really like to know about everything that's going on around me, even if some of it is a little bit scary.
Lorien
SF, CA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 10:42:03 (PDT)
Hi Everyone, thanks for the recent laughs and love on the message board. I haven't been here for a while, and have already made myself in a rush for work by reading/skimming what has been posted since I last read, but I thought I'd just check in. Thanks for the hello, Karen, it's good to hear from you! I'll try to write soon; I owe Marc an email too, where does the time go? :) My respectful opinion about this long message board is that even though some posts seem xenophobic to me, and some posts I don't read because the responses to them by other people seem filled with hurt, and some are just too long (like I hope this one doesn't turn out to be), I love it that they're all here. It's like wandering around Peace City at dinnertime, catching bits of conversation; I would feel like I was missing something if I chose just one theme at a time. I could be wrong, maybe in this time of extra stress all change seems scary. Peace to all!
Lorien <yenooc@thanksforthewarningaboutspam.com>
SF, CA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 10:38:23 (PDT)
I agree with much of what Frank said. Even more, I strongly disagreement with many of the posts I've seen here (regarding war & terrorism).
I haven't posted my thoughts, because until now I thought that most of you wouldn't give my words serious consideration. But then I read Joe Kinczel's message, where he wrote, "Respectfully expressing what one believes is correct from deep inside one's heart is not a popularity contest." Than you, Joe. In that spirit, I am motivated to try and thoughtfully express my feelings.
Many people in this forum proceed from this false assumption: the notion that real peace is desired by all, and that tolerance is a universal principle. During the March I learned that many (most?) Americans are tolerant of differences between people, and have a "live-and-let-live" attitude. The extreme form of this attitude is libertarianism. I'm not a strict libertarian, but I am tolerant of people who look, act, dress, eat, speak and worship differently than do I. Orthodox Judaism teaches me that every righteous person (Jew and non-Jew alike) has a place in the world to come.
I suspect that many GPMers feel the same way.
But there are many people in the world with values very different from ours. They do not tolerate those who think differently. This lack of tolerance is not the visceral hatred that we attribute to Nazis and the Klan. It isn't racial; it is based on core beliefs. In their view, only when you change your beliefs to match theirs can you be accepted. If you hold on to your beliefs, you must be killed. They see this as a moral obligation, so you can't make them feel guilty about it. They'd feel guilty about not killing you.
If a man believes that your are immoral, and that it is morally correct for him to kill you, then it is unlikely in the extreme that he will be dissuaded by the words of anyone. He certainly won't be convinced by the words of a non-believer like you.
Of course we should make every reasonable effort to try and forestall violence. But we should not stand by while people plot our death. My religion does not permit me to be passive in the face of violent intent. My religious obligation is clear:
"If somebody comes to kill you, rise early and kill him first" (Tractate Sanhedrin 72a).
In other words, if someone approaches me with the intention of killing me, I should kill the attacker as an act of self-defense, and my act is not considered murder.
Note to Jewish readers: I am not a posek (halachic authority), and nothing in this message should be construed as a pask (legal ruling).
I welcome your thoughts. If you want to send private email, please delete the obviously false part of my address.
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.No spam please, I'm Jewish.com>
Ann Arbor, MI USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 10:33:00 (PDT)
Do any of you go to Burning Man? I was so tempted to this year even though it was logistically impossible, but I'm having trouble sorting out if it would be my "scene". I would SO love to go, having established a PEACE VILLAGE with my GPM brothers and sisters. Anyone else?
Those of you following my weight loss journey, I am now one month post-op and down 37 pounds and 31.5 inches. I am sort of glad to have learned by email that I'm not the only marcher who got fat when the lifestyle got a lot richer than hummus and tents, even though I don't wish this struggle on anyone. If anyone else is interested in weight-loss surgery, feel free to email me... I won't "out" you. :-)
Tonight my 21 month old daughter cut right to the heart of things when we were watching the news on TV. "Mommy, turn bombs off. Bombs bad." I swear that I have not prompted her or coached her on this, but Joanne's certainly got that right!
Love to everyone. Hope this was a 20 second distraction from the war.
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@we_rule_at_microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Thursday, October 18, 2001 at 02:41:28 (PDT)
Traditional peace activities such as dissenting from the majority opinion supporting war and violence are never more relevant than during a war. The fact that most people want to fight back does not convince me that bombing Kabul will get us what we really want and need after Sep 11 which is real security and safety. Americans under Ronald Reagan in 1986 were no more interested in being distracted by our voices calling for nuclear disarmament than Americans now under George Bush are interested in being distracted by our voices opposing the bombing of Afghanistan. Americans in 1845 were not interested in the dissenting voices of abolitionists calling for an end to slavery. Respectfully exressing what one believes is correct from deep inside one's heart is not a popularity contest. If we want to protect and respect diversity of opinion in this country, then we must express our diverse opinions. That is exactly what we did in 1986 and exactly what I think we must do right now. One of the biggest problems the American public faces is seeing world and domestic events through the corrupt lens of the corporate media. Providing alternative opinions and information is more relevant now than ever before and it is our right to try and peacefully affect public opinion in all its complexity. May mercy and compassion enfold us all. I love and respect you Frank.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.doctoruba.org>
USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 21:54:22 (PDT)
I'm not sure I agree with every point here, but this editorial addresses the other side of Frank's argument--that the war hawks must be more understanding of us, as well: The chorus of denunciations leveled at peace activists by critics such as Columbia University’s Marc Berley (P-I 9/26/01) and now the Seattle P-I’s own Joel Connelly (10/15/01), as well as by other professed patriots, have moved the level of debate to new lows of verbal cheap shots. These war proponents refuse to face vital issues raised by the peace movement, resorting instead to irrelevant sloganeering. First, let’s get one thing straight: No one in the peace movement argues — or even thinks — that the suicide attackers were justified or that their proven co-conspirators should not be brought to justice. Undeniably, though, long-standing policies of the U.S. have caused — and continue to cause — great harm to people in the middle east. Peace activists point this out and for this they are labeled unpatriotic terrorist sympathizers. The charge is unfair and untrue because it confuses explaining the causes of terrorism, on the one hand, with justifying it, on the other. Understanding what causes the hate and desperation that drives some fanatics to criminal or terrorist acts is not by any means to excuse them. But just because their acts were an inexcusable and a terribly wrong over-reaction to grievances does not mean the grievances are groundless. Indeed, those who lambaste the critics of U.S. policies want Americans to focus on the wrong of the attacks and to forget about the wrong that had a hand in bringing them about. They never ask the question: Is there any truth in what the peace movement is saying? Bringing up mistakes of U.S. policies is said to cause disunity and is simply not open to discussion, according to war enthusiasts. And why not? Because they are so beguiled by their own rhetoric of retaliation and revenge that they see war as the only solution. They minimize or ignore the cost and futility of “winning” a war against a furtive band of stateless desperados, some unseen, still among us. Yet the conventional war they urge inevitably will strike down many more innocents than guilty, swelling the ranks of U.S. haters and escalating rounds of retaliation against America’s vulnerable target rich cities and infrastructure. Worse yet, the war hawks ignore a simple and just solution to the problem. Most of us in our every-day lives, when faced with a problem, ask ourselves: What is causing it? And then we set about to cure the problem by eliminating the cause in the most efficient and least harmful way, being unafraid to admit and correct our own mistakes, if they are a part of the problem. That is the rational course here. The remedy is to change our policies toward the middle east. That would include, for starters (1) ending the useless and devastating sanctions against Iraq, (2) withdrawing U.S. troops from Saudi Arabia and our warships from the Gulf, and (3) withholding financial and military support from Israel until it does whatever is necessary to settle its differences with the Palestinians. When we take these and other similar steps how will terrorist ring leaders induce followers to martyr themselves just to kill innocent Americans? Some will say this is giving in to terrorists. Not so. We should do what is right toward the people of the middle east, regardless of the wrongdoing of a relatively small number of their lunatic fringe. We, the ordinary people of the U.S. have no interest in and no need to exert power and influence in the middle east. It is those who finance the election of our political cheer leaders and who own the major media organs that have the need for this; not us. One must see through their war propaganda and conclude there are corporate financial interests at stake here, not the interests of average Americans. There cannot be a credible fear that a puny, war-devastated Afghanistan or a twice beaten Iraq are a real or even a potential threat to our freedoms and our way of life, even if we hold our overwhelming military might in reserve at home to protect real American interests, not those of some un-elected Saudi oil sheik. Jerry Cronk
Roberta
USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 21:13:22 (PDT)
Good! I respect your respect, James. And I do agree with your analysis of the logical outcome to our actions. As I said, there is a global dialogue taking place, as we speak. My concern has more to do with developing a shared and realistic interpretation of our current situation, as well as an understanding of why the world may appear to be spinning out of control. We cannot hope to intervene in any effective way, if we start off by viewing our opponents as aliens.
Frank <peacegeek@hotmail.com>
Minneapolis, MN USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 14:47:36 (PDT)
When Liz died at the hands of terrorists our government responded. We meticulously built a legal case over several years. We negotiated, also for several years, with Libya for the extradition of the perpetrators. We succeeded on all counts, reaching convictions against the terrorists. Did this justice end terrorism? No. But more importantly, did this justice create more terrorism? No, by taking the moral high ground it showed the world how civilized people can achieve justice. On the other hand, every bomb we drop on Afghanistan creates more terrorists. We grow less safe every day this war goes on and we increase the chances of our own citizens suffering and dying. And we kill to achieve this, the antithesis of our #4 priority in life, safety. I converse respectfully (and regularly) with people who oppose my point of view and the sign I carry at rallys says simply "Justice without War". Will I shut up because the majority of Americans don't agree? Hell no.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 14:12:47 (PDT)
One thing I learned on the GPM was to respect the intelligence and ultimate sensibilities of the American public. I started off from LA with the misconception that my views about life and the course the future should take were certainly superior to the views held by most of the rest of the world. I thought 'conservatives' were as diametrically different from 'liberals' as both were from 'radicals'. The world was made up of nicely compartmentalized points of view for me, in those days, but the nine months I spent on the road, meeting America, and actually getting to know hundreds if not thousands of folks along the way, who only haphazardly fit into those preconceived ideological compartments, destroyed those illusions for me. By the time we reached D.C., I had begun to understand that the true strength and hope in our way of life is firmly anchored in the enormous diversity of our population and the melting-pot nature of our culture.
As many have begun to suspect, traditional peace activities are definitely irrelevant at this point. The problem is that we really are under attack, and most people believe that the only thing we can do right now is fight back. GW's soaring approval ratings (90-plus percent with each new assault or threat made against us) are clear proof that Americans are not interested in being distracted by peace demonstrations right now. I do believe that all lives are of equal value, but we have to realize that yesterday's attempted murder of 29 people in Senator Daschel's D.C. office and the similar assault on NY Governor George Petaki's staff in NYC are of much greater concern to the American public right now, than are euphemistically named "collateral" casualties in far away Afghanistan.
Psychologist Abraham Maslow described what he calls the "relative pre-potency of needs", which drive human behavior, and 'security' is #4 on his list, coming just after 'breathing', 'eating', and waste 'elimination'. Higher processes, like 'philosophy' and 'altruism' come into play later, once these more basic needs are met. Bin Laden, his sycophants, and whatever other maniacs decide to mimic his actions have forced us all into attending to "Need #4", right now. Peace activities and protests are much more likely to be perceived as distractions, at the moment, than as relevant and useful efforts to improve the world.
In 1986, we marched against nuclear weapons with the 'potential threat' of nuclear annihilation hanging in the air, and people were moderately responsive and sympathetic to us because they were worried, but not completely convinced, that nuclear war was imminent. Our mission, at that point, was to educate the general populace on the dangers of nuclear weapons production and the likelihood that nukes would be used, if we continued down the same Cold War path. The difference, now, is that we have actually been attacked -- first by the hijacked planes, and now with Anthrax.
Different challenging circumstances require different inspired responses. It is not helpful, now, for us to rail generally against the military's response in Afghanistan to these attacks on our country. Uncreative prattle, inflammatory rhetoric, and jingoistic insults directed at the US government and the Public's current support for patriotic displays of national unity are counterproductive and devisive. If we are to contribute to an eventual resolution to this crisis and help move the world forward along the path to peace, while still encouraging the advance of freedom and democracy, we must remember to respect the intelligence and passions of all who may not share our perspectives at this point.
Disrespect is a form of violence and it provokes disrespect in response -- just as physical violence does. Right now, in the midst of all this chaos, there is a global dialogue taking place about who we are, as a race of beings, and what it is we want for the future of our world. We can ultimately be far more effective in our efforts to build that better future by focusing on positive and constructive efforts which promote equity, peace, understanding, and the expanding awareness that we all live in one inextricably interconnected world.
Frank Holmgren <peacegeek@hotmail.com>
Minneapolis, MN USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 13:51:53 (PDT)
Good morning, you wonderful people! I just read a qoute from a Unitarian who said, "You drew a circle to shut me out but I drew a circle to take you in." I am making my way through my thoughts and fears and hopefully will begin to do more about waging peace. It still hits me like a forceful blow when I think that we are killing people on a daily basis (and then I think "How often does our country kill or hurt others that I don't even know about??") UGH! How are others doing today? Sending my best- BTW- Just to make sure, I "changed" my hotmail email address to stop the spaming- just take off the "is_it_" to reach me privately :)
Deanna <dconstab@is_it_hotmail.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Wednesday, October 17, 2001 at 09:59:31 (PDT)
The GPM has given me so much over the years. One thing that has become clearer to me over time is the impact of our walk. We played a role in the ending of the Cold War. The size or importance of that role is irrelevant and cannot be measured. What is important is that we walked and talked and acted. At this time when everything can be so depressing and confusing(I hear you Roberta!), we can draw on our GPM experience for guidance. During the GPM we were basically ignored by the corporate media and we will be ignored again during this Sep 11 crisis. During the GPM we influenced and uplifted the people who saw us or talked with us and we will do so again during this crisis. During the GPM we acted on our common principles of global nuclear disarmament and non-violent resistance to the warmongering policies of our government and during this crisis we can act on our common principles again. We can educate and publicize the causes of peace and justice and perform non-violent resistance to the warmongering policies of our government. We know that the US government can no more justify the continued bombing of Afghanistan than the terrorists can justify the bombings of Sep 11. We can call attention to that and call attention to the total lack of real airplane safety measures taken by the government and airline industry. We can draw on the same courage that moved us to walk in 1986 to act again in 2001. The GPM worked and that experience can be our guide to action here and now. I am so grateful to you all for this life and the gifts of the GPM. Blessings to all our relations.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Tuesday, October 16, 2001 at 08:23:44 (PDT)
Every now and then I show Just One Step, the documentary by Cathy Zheutlin and edited by our own Mr. Knight, to some friends, usually young. I show it to them because I want them to see what a group of empowered people can do--what they might do. It is a beautifully done film. I never tire of seeing it. This time I watched, though, it was different for me. Personally, I realized that there was all this alive energy on the March, and while mine grew over the months I was kind of in the background doing my job and walking, letting the experience sink in with every step. I was pretty depressed when I left on the March, having just divorced a year or so before after 10 years of marriage and then broken up with a boyfriend who had worked for Pro-Peace. Yet I remember nearly every scene shown in the film because I was there, even though I don't appear in the film. This comes up because when I show it to others, they always ask "Where are you?" I guess it is not surprising that the only thing of mine in this film is my little Macintosh 512, which Ben Zeman convinced me to bring along for the Media trailer. (Oh dear, my machine is apparent, but not me.) But the more important thing I noticed was all the people I knew/still know, at least by face, including the many, many who have left us: Ginny, Liz Marek, Carlton, Ashley, Sheila Notkoff, Franklin, and on and on. We were not confused then about what to do about nuclear proliferation, but I am confused now. While I abhor all forms of violence, especially against the innocents killed in New York and DC and PA, I also abhor the violence our foreign policy has perpetrated throughout the world--from training torturers and dictators in the School of Americas, to sanctioning Cuba and Iraq, to having Allende assasinated in Chile, etc., etc. But I do not know what to do about it. Our voices for restraint seem muffled, though there are some who are speaking out. It seems like such a different climate than when we marched in 1986--we had the innocence of never being attacked in the lower 48 anyway. It makes me want to ask of Ginny, Liz, Ashley, Carlton, and Franklin and the others--what shall we do now, dear friends?
Roberta
Bainbridge Island, WA USA - Monday, October 15, 2001 at 23:09:59 (PDT)
Hello, my Tribe and Family -- This evening I celebrated the life of a friend who died about a year ago. We sang and danced and eat and drank in his memory and with each other and to life!
Jenaine Malito <dsoper@clipper.net>
USA - Sunday, October 14, 2001 at 20:36:39 (PDT)
I am grateful that the US Government did not bomb Afghanistan for three weeks after Sep 11. I felt that it was a miracle. Now, I am appalled that the US Government has already been bombing Afghanistan for the last week. Food is being dropped along with the bombs in order to make us feel good here in the USA. The amount and locations of the food drops have very little real value to those starving on the ground in Afghanistan. Now the US Government is talking about what countries will be next in line for our bombs. Is our government and its people so bereft of compassion for our own Sep 11 dead that we will inflict the same type of violence on others that we condemned here on Sep 11 in the USA? Can we come up with a balanced definition of terrorism that could possible include violence committed by the US Government? Can we come up with a creative response to violence that does not perpetuate more violence? Does the suffering of one person in the USA matter more than the suffering of one person in Afghanistan? Blessings to all our relations.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Sunday, October 14, 2001 at 08:31:39 (PDT)
Look what an awed silence has settled over the Peace March page. A miracle occurred. Everyone is so in wonder and admiration they know not what to say. The Great Atheist overcome by the Compassionate Buddhist! Bj exalts the event, blessing it with a crown of love, and on our Web site now there sits only a reverent hush. Ah, but Joe speaks all too true when he calls me dramatic. I’m a showoff more shameful than Katea, and an exhibitionist more irrepressible than is Sarah. So, to jump start our discussion again (and mostly to have more fun), (Marc, you can jump on me again if you like), I submit the following: The United States will FORGIVE Osama bin Laden and give him millions and billions of dollars. The U.S. will provide bin Laden with chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons – all he desires! Bush will pull down the pants of bin Laden and kiss this scum of the earth’s ass on worldwide TV! All of this our "leader" will do if, IF... - bin Laden will TURN HIS TERROR AGAINST COMMUNISTS. No, there’s no longer the big bad Soviet Union, but there are still far too many Communists left - in Vietnam, in China, in CUBA. Bin Laden must kill Fidel Castro! Yes, that’s how much the capitalist pigs who run (who RUIN!) our country hate and fear Communism – much more than they do Muslim fundamentalism. I’ll kiss YOUR ass if I’m wrong.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Saturday, October 13, 2001 at 14:58:44 (PDT)
Hassah! Love conquers all!!
Bj
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 13:46:49 (PDT)
And you, Joe, are the KING OF LOVE! Never before in my life have I felt such a wave of warmth washed with humor. This must be the MIRACLE of which you speak - the miracle of love. With that one exquisite message you have converted me. I am now a believer.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 11:42:14 (PDT)
Happy Friday! As to conflict resolution, Shabtai- I would agree- as long as there is resolution. The last presidential election gave me more questions, frustration and anger- perhaps because there was no resolution. Just because someone says there is doesn't mean there is (resolution, I mean :) I wanted to share the following I read today and pass it on: "GLOBAL PEACE INITIATIVE FROM AVALON. In consideration of the present world crisis, we the people who believe in world peace for all beings, call for a mass alignment of hearts and souls so that we can focus our collective energy and bring it about. Throughout Saturday October 13 - especially between 23.30 - 0.30 GMT, we will be gathering together at sacred sites and wherever we are on Earth - singing and playing the Beatles song "Give Peace A chance." Sending out love out to all beings as we do so, we will be heralding the end of all war mentality and helping to bring about a New Age of Global Peace. Love and peace be with you all. Please pass this info on to everyone you can." :)
Deanna <dconstab@is_it_hotmail.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 09:29:21 (PDT)
One of the lessons I learned on the Peace March is that people with strongly opposing opinions can still care for each other; we can all show concern for one another.
I remember a scene in Kathy's film showing a guy who was pro-nuke, who nevertheless hosted a barbecue for marchers. Facing the camera, he says something like, "I think these guys are wrong, we've got to have nukes to protect ourselves." Then he turns to the group of marchers and says, "Who wants another hamburger?"
I've never considered myself much of a patriot, but could you imagine a scene like that happening anywhere else in the world? After an election, we accept the will of the majority, even when we think they're wrong. Then the "losers" plan their strategy to try and win-over the minds of the voters; they work on winning the next election. In a sense, that's what we were trying to do on the GPM. (Remember spelling out "VOTE" with our tents?)
I think one reason that so many new democracies fail is that they have no tradition of peaceful disagreement. The losers don't accept their loss and plan for the next election; instead, they plot and execute a military coup.
Let me put this idea forth for discussion: Democratic elections are a form of non-violent conflict resolution. Waddya think?Regards,
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.no spam please, I'm Jewish.com>
Ann Arbor, MI USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 08:11:41 (PDT)
Hello everybody.
This morning I had more SPAM waiting for me at my gpmguy address. The subject was "YOUR CHILD" and it was advertising a "STUDENT PLANNER AND STUDY SKILLS FOR SUCCESS PROGRAM."
Since I really really hate SPAM, I decided to do a little research. It's amazing what you can find by using the internet. For example, you may be interested to note that it was sent by:
Mr. David Semenas, a teacher at:
Goodrich Middle School
8029 S. Gale Rd.
Goodrich, MI 48438
phone: (810) 591-2253
fax: (810) 591-2222
Though he used a fake return address, his real address is: childrenf@yahoo.com
Why don't we all drop him a line and let him know how much we enjoy his SPAM?
Please remember that we're supposed to be peaceful; let him know what you think, but please don't be mean.
Regards,
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.no_spam_please,_I'm_Jewish.com>
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 07:52:34 (PDT)
Hello everybody.
This morning I had more SPAM waiting for me at my gpmguy address. The subject was "YOUR CHILD" and it was advertising a "STUDENT PLANNER AND STUDY SKILLS FOR SUCCESS PROGRAM."
Since I really really hate SPAM, I decided to do a little research. It's amazing what you can find by using the internet. For example, you may be interested to note that it was sent by:
Mr. David Semenas, a teacher at:
Goodrich Middle School
8029 S. Gale Rd.
Goodrich, MI 48438
phone: (810) 591-2253
fax: (810) 591-2222
Though he used a fake return address, his real address is: childrenf@yahoo.com
Why don't we all drop him a line and let him know how much we enjoy his SPAM?
Please remember that we're supposed to be peaceful; let him know what you think, but please don't be mean.
Regards,
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.no_spam_please,_I'm_Jewish.com>
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 07:36:59 (PDT)
Marc honey. You know what? I believe you!! It makes perfect sense that you would be my long-lost soldier. And actually, knowing it was the friendly aliens, rather than a ball of lead, makes me feel a lot better. Kind of settles my soul. Not all the kids made it after you left but the ones that did were up-standing. Wish I had pictures for you dear. And speaking of the kids. We need to negotiate some retroactive child support, don't you? A bushel of corn and a rack of venison for the coming winter will do nicely.
Bj
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 06:17:12 (PDT)
Gene, you are truly the reincarnated KING OF DRAMA and this is your stage! Just as soon as me and Dr. Uba get our money out of Nigeria, we are going to endow a chair in your name at the hot spring of your choice and it will be dedicated to Shakespeare, Marx and the study of DRAMATIC ATHEISM - all while soaking at 104 degrees. Don't you dare go anywhere!
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 00:52:28 (PDT)
I love you guys! You make me laugh! Now more than ever, I need to laugh at something, anything really.
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@weruleat.microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Friday, October 12, 2001 at 00:35:23 (PDT)
BJ, honey, the spirit moves me to tell you at last. I was that Civil War husband who left you bereft with our seven young ones. But I wasn't killed in the war. I was on the battlefield, and a bullet was racing toward my heart when a shaft of light suddenly beamed from the sky and--BAM!--there I was, abducted by kindly space aliens. They explained to me that I was born for peace not war, for love not hate. I said, "Let me go back to my wife and children. Please! Please!" "Patience," they whispered gently. "We must teach you first, so that when you return to Earth, you will be ready to join a great Tribe. Only then will you meet your wife again. And then you'll just be friends." I didn't like that one bit, but what could I do? You can't really argue with the space aliens. Especially when they've just saved your life. But it is good to know you again, BJ. And really, I would have preferred to come home.
marc
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 22:55:03 (PDT)
Roberta and friends! I have a suggestion. This forum would be easier (and more FUN!)to use if it were set up with a format where "threads" could be followed. check out www.chilel.com click on "forum" and see what that type of forum would look like. Anyone logging on would see name of the person posting, and the subject line, and then you could decide which "thread" you wanted to read or answer. It would be easier to see if anyone answered your posting too. Lorien! It was so great to see your name here! write to me! Also -- no one clamoured for the chameleon-clothing info. Don't we ALL want one? or Two? I'm glad you liked the utilikilts site. The chameleon's website is something like www.crystal-stix.com but I'm not sure, I'll get it if you're interested in ordering with me. love to you all. Karen
Karen Jeffers Tracy <ktracy@dnaco.net>
OH USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 21:31:58 (PDT)
Yes, Gene, I did feel bludgeoned by your posts, but that may have had more to do with my past than with your present. I love it, however, that you're a reincarnated atheist. I can certainly find the kernel of truth in that concept. Glad you're back and so enthusiastic.
Elizabeth
Dallas, USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 19:38:29 (PDT)
Love your post, James - it really gives me a thrill and makes me whirl around even more. Thank you: I love you too.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 19:23:54 (PDT)
Gene, I am here to EXPOSE YOU! No, no, not as a commie (or a paranoid) but as that most sublime creature, an ECSTATIC! Its in your eyes and in your words, YOU CAN'T DENY IT! (Well, OK, you can deny it. But I won't believe it!) I picture you in a turban, eyes flaming, body whirling, chanting the many secret names of god. Prayer, racing cars, soaking in hot tubs, whats the difference, if it sets your soul on fire with that 100% alive every molecule plugged into the source of the universe feeling? And I love you for it Gene!
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 17:32:13 (PDT)
Gene, I don't really know what to say, but I am compelled to comment. Staying or going needs to be your choice. We all use this forum to express ourselves in whatever way seems appropriate to the individual. We are, after all, pretty open to each other's needs. And if your experience of world events leads you to fight for or against one thing or another than I say, go for it Brother. Understand that I cannot hang with every discussion or thread of thought, so chances are good that I will, once again, check out of the atheism/communism/materialism track. But I couldn't possibly deny your right to engage in it. I wonder about what seems like a request for censure or rejection. What would you get out of anyone here telling you to go away? I can't fathom it. Any more than I can fathom the air of rejection I have gotten from your answers to my own expressions of faith and spirituality/religion. My beliefs are not superstition. Neither is whatever possesses you to discount them. Your reality is yours, mine is mine. I will happily participate in any discussion where that basic tenet is respected. As for reincarnation, I'm pretty sure I was a civil war bride, married to no one of account, whose husband went off and got killed leaving her with 7 kids. No kidding, I really believe that. Does the fact that I believe God has given me another chance to learn lessons and evolve make me any nuttier than believing I was someone famous?
Bj
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 16:43:57 (PDT)
I did leave you friends, but just for two days. I went off for John Lennon’s birthday to a hot spring. Did you know that John Lennon was, back in his Liverpool youth, a member of the Young Communist League? Do you know that a statue of John Lennon – a monument – was recently erected in Cuba, with Fidel Castro officiating at the ceremony?
Well, October 9th is my birthday too. On Tuesday I walked around in the sun in my birthday suit, naked as the day – sixty-two years ago – that I was born. Now I’m back and must tell you the naked truth: I am a reincarnated soul.
The spirit of Cyrano de Bergerac lives in me – yes, he of the huge nose, great heart, and magnificent materialist mind. I am the author of "The Age of Reason" come back to earth – the patriot, the revolutionary, the man whom the bully Theodore Roosevelt called "that dirty little atheist" Tom Paine.
As sure as I live I am the reincarnation of Robert G. Ingersoll. Only Shakespeare wrote more beautifully than Ingersoll and Ingersoll devoted every divine word, each of his heavenly books to the elevation of Reason over Religion, Science above Superstition. A Civil War hero, a political person high up in party of Lincoln, Ingersoll could have president of the United States. Instead, he toured the various States lecturing on Freethought, drawing audiences of thousands and thousands. Mark Twain was in awe of Ingersoll and I am absolute the man speaks through me.
I don’t know why I’m so passionate these days. I can’t help it. Perhaps I’m a poet, even a philosopher/poet. Maybe I’m a maniac – a megalomaniac. On this our cyber village am I the village atheist or the village idiot? Whatever, I feel a strong sense of mission, and part of my mission is to oppose the Muslims.
I hope I’ve satisfied you, Frank and Lynn, that this opposition does not quite qualify me as a racist. But all I want to do now is fight bin Laden’s evil virulent strain of Islam. I can’t anymore write another word in the book June and I have devoted our lives to since the day we met in 1998 – on March 31st, GPM anniversary day! It’s a beautiful book; Joe has seen part of it. But with this terrible crisis upon us all I can do is cry "These are the times that try men’s souls!"
Can I do this on our Web page? Some in our family feel uncomfortable with it. Elizabeth, do you really feel so "bludgeoned" that you must cover your head and heart to protect yourself, that you "can't hear or see any kernel of truth that may be hidden in the rhetoric?" Should I feel I especially am the cause of your distress?
Blessings to you, TNH, whoever you are, for affirming that I am a member of this family, and especially for acknowledging that I am not a racist (well, not an "out-and-out" one anyway).
You ARE my family and this is my forum. That is, unless you want to deny me this forum and expel me from our family. If you do so it will break my heart but my reincarnated soul shall seek to find refuge elsewhere. For there is one thing I love even more than the Great peace March and that is my search for truth.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 16:16:53 (PDT)
Frank, I'd prefer to not open stuff at all, but Eudora pops things up like one of those Butterball timer dealies in a turkey. I just can't stop it. Any hints for protecting myself? Fortunately, as a Mac (macs rule!) user, I'm immune to a lot of what y'all can catch.
One other spam busting option is Junkbusters.com. They profess to remove your name from loads of lists, email, snailmail and phone. But I had a similar hesitation to Frank's when, at the end of the form, they ask if they can distribute my email info. When I refused, the reply chided,"Click here to find out who already has that information anyway!" It seemed fairly pre-teen and I've not been back. Any other ideas for staunching the flow? I feel like my mailbin is an old-growth burial ground with all the junk mail!
Bj
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 13:49:06 (PDT)
Oops! That should have read: "... type of e-mail browser you are using." (Don't ya just hate it when that happens!)Peace and carats to you all. (8^>?
Frank
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 12:54:03 (PDT)
Yup. I got a letter from Dr. Abu, too, but I accidently deleted it along with all the other SPAM I get (which takes about a second and a half, whenever I open my email program). I, too, could use a really great investment opportunity, though of course I'd have to have one that required only a small contribution from me, in return for the certainty of enormous wealth coming back to me. Seeing Dr. Abu's name reminded me of the old "Nigerian 4-1-9" scam, which as Evan has said, has been floating around the net for ten or twelve years. It has reportedly proven fatal for some of its victims and, if you're interested in how it works, you can read about it at: http://www.scambusters.org/NigerianFee.html
I rarely open email that is not clearly directed to me by a sender in whom I have confidence, though of course like everyone else I can still be fooled. I'm not sure what Dr. Abu had to say, but I'm sure you all know, by now, that some of the newer internet worms are designed to infect a computer immediately upon opening -- depending, of course, on the type of e-mail browser you ja[[emusing. Some of these worms then, in turn, try to automatically spread themselves to all the e-addresses listed in your email address book, using your good name as the seduction to get 'your' recipients to open the infected letter. For any of you who don't already know it, your best defense is a good, currently updated, antivirus program (I've been using "McAfee Online" for the past year, and I have been very happy with it, as it notifies me of new viruses as they appear on the net and automatically upgrades itself every day.)
Thanks for the "WARNING!", Shabtai, though I have to admit that that large font red headline did cause my heart to race, as I held my breath and frantically searched for my gas mask and space blanket. A couple minutes later, once I was properly protected, I did get around to reading the content of your message.
Do you think I'm letting the stress of the moment get to me?
(8^>?
BTW, Julia -- Do I REALLY have to give my bank account and credit card numbers with expiration dates to those nice folks at Washington's "Consumer Protection Division", as they request? I didn't mind that they wanted my ATM PIN number, as I hardly ever use it myself, but I thought they were going a little far when they demanded my password for my Hotmail account....
Frank Holmgren <peacegeek@hotmail.com>
Minneapolis, MN USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 12:44:55 (PDT)
Shabtai's right... and if you live in the state of Washington, where spam email has been made illegal, there's something you can do about it.
First, go to this page for more information: Consumer Protection Division Junk Email Page. Register your Washington-state email addresses there, and follow their instructions about what to do when you get spam. The Washington State Attorney General has filed and won two cases now using the anti-spam law, and it has been found to be constitional, and I think that's a great advance for the online world! I wish more states would follow suit.
Kim Salerno Hunter, you're right, I did think that you were Kim Hunter on the GPM. Sorry for the confusion, and very glad to meet you anyway. :-)
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@weruleat.microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 10:31:41 (PDT)
Bj, Thanks for the FTC address. I had been forwarding my chances for millions to SpamCop. I've thought of forwarding these messages to the FBI. I hadn't thought of a home in Florida, but maybe since we're all getting these messages we can set up a special bank account for the GPM land marchers want to buy. The most recent letter I received was from the wife of the former defense minister of the Zaire/Congo, who had $20 million in cash "which he had collected while carrying out his official duties." I wonder if Rumsfield feels undercompensated?
Elizabeth
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 10:27:31 (PDT)
Did I fail to mention that Dr. Uba and I would like to invite all GPMers to our vacation house in Florida? All we need is your bank account number and credit card info.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 10:25:40 (PDT)
Joe, I presume you are kidding. But in case anyone else might take you or Dr. Uba seriously, the "Nigerian Scam" is over 12 years old and very successful. It used to be by letter, but has grown in the internet years. It is so successful there is a division at the state department exclusively devoted to it. As hard as it may be to believe, these people have bilked americans for millions. Again, if you don't get how it works, once you give them your bank account, they clean out your bank account....
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 10:11:35 (PDT)
Shocked and Appalled!! Okay Joe, I'll tell you what. I get at least three of these generous and aboveboard offers a week. Forget the FTC, I'll just forward them to you...what was your email address again?...and then you and the family can afford to invite me to that summer house in Florida. Deal?
Bj
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 09:58:07 (PDT)
Shabtai and BJ, I am shocked at your suspiciousness! Dr. Uba seems like a perfectly wonderful and sensible man. Don't we all want to take care of our own family, first? Personally, I am eager to help him and his family. They have sent me so many kind and thoughtful letters. I am planning to buy a vacation home in Florida with my earnings from helping Dr. Uba!
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 08:57:07 (PDT)
Thanks Shabtai. I've been wondering where Dr. Abu and many others got my address. Much as I'd like to have the quarter million dollar 'commission' for helping launder money in America, I think I'd prefer to not get 'bot-ed. A couple additional tips for folks who receive spam. NEVER click the conveniently provided link that says something like "if you got this message in error or would like to unsubscribe, click here." That action verifies that your email address is a good one and that it is ripe for being resold across the globe. Simply delete these messages. AND, when you get something dodgy like the Nigerian" give us your bank account number" type, you can forward them to uce@ftc.gov. That stands for unsolicited commercial email at the Federal Trade Commission. The FTC professes to follow up on criminal solicitation. It may be a futile act, but I feel better knowing someone else is aware of these scams.
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 07:35:11 (PDT)
Warning
Someone has scanned this message board and "harvested" our email addresses for SPAM.
I have used my "gpmguy" address exclusively for posting here (and for private email with GPMers). I never used it anywhere else. Today I received a message allegedly from DR. AWELE UBA of the NIGERIAN NATIONAL PETROLEUM CORPORATION. I don't remember Dr. Uba from the GPM, so I'm assuming it's SPAM. (Also, I don't think any GPMers would want to know my bank account number.)
I have changed my email address; my new address is the same as the old one, except there is a dash ("-") between gpm and guy.
Since this harvesting is usually automated, it's simple to hide your real address from the harvesting 'bots, while still making it human-readable. For example, If I tell you to remove the silverware from my address below to send me mail, you'll figure out what my address is, but the email address harvesting 'bots are too stupid to figure it out.
Love to you all,
Shabtai Klein <gpm-guy@pwb.forkspoonknife.com>
Ann Arbor, MI USA - Thursday, October 11, 2001 at 06:55:35 (PDT)
I came back for a peek to see if the coast is clear. I heard something tonight that helped me understand what I was feeling. "Truth is not a weapon. Wisdom is not a weapon. Truth is a seed." I have never been bludgeoned by a seed. When I feel I must cover my head and heart to protect myself, I can't hear or see any kernel of truth that may be hidden in the rhetoric.
Elizabeth
Dallas, USA - Wednesday, October 10, 2001 at 21:26:04 (PDT)
I am traveling this week and as such have a different media diet. At home I listen to Pacifica and NPR and read various magazines and newspapers. While traveling this week I have watched news on TV which I never do at home. The difference between the media diet at home and on the road is huge. At home I think of NPR as the farthest to the right or to the establishment that I am willing to go. On the road, NPR is the furthest to the left that I can get. CNN and FOX and ABC etc., have really become corporate mouthpieces for US empire. They may actually report some of the facts, but the entire presentation is so manipulative that I can hardly believe it. NPR has also been coopted by corporations, but is certainly more balanced and less of a mindless propoganda service. I had forgotten about these things until recently(?!) and now am more convinced than ever that the mainstream media is toxic. Thank goodness that there are still some alternative media outlets that are still at work.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Wednesday, October 10, 2001 at 17:51:35 (PDT)
Deanna I hear what you're saying. I don't feel our government is representing me or MANY others like me. TV media would have us believe that most United Statesians support this retailiation, but they are barely reporting on the many numerous peace rallies and marches happening all around the country. I heard a story of a peace gathering in NYC, in Times Square, where police estimates stated close to 10,000 people attended. The local tv news coverage said only hundreds attended. It seems important not to keep quiet. I work with children, at our local community college, in a Parent Ed. program. A pretty wonderful program I might add.(Marc, that's how I get to hang out with 15 1 year olds at a time, and it does help me retain my goofiness.) Today I had an opportunity to talk with a young mom who is in the process of legally retrieving custody of her 2 yr.old from her parents. She was panicked, stressed and in tears as she explained how manipulated she feels by the legal system... I was encouraging her to focus on all the positive work she's done and continuing to do, and to put her energy into creating the future she wants to have with her child. She left the conversation feeling encouraged, and so did I. I need to keep focused on creating and living a peaceful life, and not get too distracted by energy opposing that path. Not that I will live in denial about what is happening, but I don't want to lose my sight or vision. Every person, every where has the right to a peaceful existence. Marc, I especially don't want my gut to bleed, or yours. You are too wonderful, to suffer so harshly. Julia, I don't remember being your tent mate. I'm wondering if you are thinking of Kim Hunter. I'm Kim Salerno Hunter and I tented with Jessica Tracy at first, then Tim Hunter, who I later married, and added Hunter to my name. I have really enjoyed reading your postings, however. I am sorry to hear about the situation with your husband/family. I liked Nora's input for you. I feel for you and will hold good thoughts for you and your family. I thank all you guys for your response to the kilt question. I was going to come back with some dumb generalization about why guys should wear skirts, but really what I want to say is that I wish you had the cultural support to choose, each morning, whether you wanted to where pants, a skirt, shorts... Personally, I mostly choose shorts or pants, but skirts are REALLY comfortable.
Kim Salerno Hunter <yowbap@home.com>
Oly, WA USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 21:44:39 (PDT)
By the way, I have never given in to bully in my life and I don't intend to now. I have refused to acknowledge Bush as my president because he is not. I live in a country where my country's leader is voted in NOT selected. Of course, this might not be the country I thought it was or taught it should be... :(
Deanna
USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 18:05:33 (PDT)
Another good point, James! I was just in a discussion with a friend of mine- I said that what America has just done by going into this "revenge" military action is just showing how scared and weak we currently are. For example, when I was growing up I was taught that to fight the bully was the weak and easy way out of the situation. If, instead, I had tried to talk things over, and if the bully still persisted in giving me problems- the true way to show strength was to refuse to become involved in their agressive tendencies. Basically, refusing to give the bully any power. America has now just given the bully all the power as well as further reasons to continue aggression and violence. No wonder we are scared- the playground has no adult to monitior it and bring order back from the chaos.
Deanna <dconstab@hotmail.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 17:33:39 (PDT)
By the way, if this is a war on terror, why is it that every one I talk to, radical, liberal or conservative, is more afraid now that it has begun?
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 16:58:20 (PDT)
Kimberly, I LOVED your discription of the one year olds. What funny little creatures. I just went back and read it again, and laughed all over.
BIL COLBURN
USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 12:53:59 (PDT)
Bj, thanks for your patience. I was just pulling your leg in an otherwise sincere post. Let me know when you have a diagnosis. Oops, there I go again. I liked your reminder about stress and how we may react to it. Be well.
BIL COLBURN <bilcolburn@yahoo.com>
Los Angeles, YA USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 12:32:56 (PDT)
Julia, I too am sorry to hear of your sadness. In a time when everything seems so uncertain, it must be especially hard to deal with major change now. My prayers are with you.
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 10:32:08 (PDT)
My anxiety is increasing rapidly. I've been trying to focus on the mundane...I get so many kids for Halloween, do I have enough stuff for them? Who should I invite to my graduation party? Have I been doing enough volunteer work? What can I do for this client or that one? Will posting my resume on guru.com get me the dream gig to incorporate my organizational and individual counseling skill?...but the denial/repression is wearing thin. A friend sent me our evacuation plan today. The good news is, I have friends who consider me family and for a full-on orphan with no blood ties, that is pretty meaningful. The bad news is, I have to think about the fact that I live in a hotspot and might need to take them up on it. Think about it, yeah, but dwelling on it is a problem. I'm trying to hold onto the light and not create some awful self-fulfilling prophesy...and I'm scared. Free floating anxiety and a stomachache. It seems the norm these days.
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 10:30:59 (PDT)
Sometimes I come to this website looking for comfort and feel resentful when I feel anything but -- insteadI feel challenged, annoyed, ignored, etc. Eventually I am reminded that there is no 'easy out' or safe spot, it is an unreal expectation to sidestep pain. It is, however,a comfort to know that we can annoy, insult, ignore and anger one another and STILL LOVE. Until pain is moved THROUGH, it will exist. I wanted to share a citing in Yoga JOurnal Magazine, crediting Congressman Dennis Kucinmich (D-OH)"who introduced legistlation to create a cabinet level agency dedicated to preacemaking. The Department of Peace's mission? To 'promote the development of human potential,' 'study the role of the media in the escalation and de-escalation of conflict at domestic and international levels,' and 'work with educators to equip students to become skilled in achieving peace through reflection.'" I am writing this guy to thank him, and find out more about his bill. To Julia, I don't know you well but I know a little bit about where you are. I left my husband while my daughter was still nursing. The time apart is scary and sad-- but does NOT mean a necessary end to your nursing relationship. Once I was really ready to accept my ex fully, to trust that he is the best parent he can be, just as I am, I have learned to relish and recharge during my time alone. Believe me, as a single parent, you need it even more than you do now! Also, although not ideal by anyone's standards, I have come to understand that this set-up of living separate lives while both very focused on our daughter, is not a failure,but in fact our getting it right finally. The best we can do. We do spend time all together, which is really important for kids. My love and hugs go out to you during this difficult transition. My only practical advice is to play lots of Aretha Franklin and dance with your daughter, remember your power and joy and love!
Nora <Nirmala@attglobal.net>
NY USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 10:01:38 (PDT)
Deanna, I know what you're feeling. I'm in denial too. I feel like I "should" be doing all kinds of things that I'm not. I feel as though if I really let any of this in I'll never stop weeping. I also know that I've felt this way before, through most of the 80s during our criminal war on Central America, Panama, Iraq in the 90s, on and on. And I know that during those times I went back and forth between furious activism and withdrawal. Sometimes we just need to draw in and tend that small flame still burning in our hearts...
James Knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 09:46:06 (PDT)
Let's be kind to one another. We are all capable and culpable of saying and doing awful things to each other. Our guestbook just like the GPM is a microcosm of the world. We are not different kinds of humans than the ones bombing or the ones being bombed on all sides. Shabtai(hello Shabtai, I love you) has a different truth than Gene(hello Gene, I love you) who has a different truth than Colleen (hello Colleen, I love you) who has a different truth than Lynn(hello Lynn, I love you) and so on(hello So On, I love you too). SO WHAT? Nobody has a stranglehold on the TRUTH! What we can do is listen and love and continue to express our version of the TRUTH to each other. Every type of respectful and sincere posting here adds to the completeness and perfection of our relationship to each other. Each little bit of TRUTH that each one of us adds is really another step on our continuing GPM. Lets honor each other. Julia, I am so sorry that you and your husband are having such a hard time. I will hold you and him and your child in my heart today. May mercy and compassion enfold us all.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 08:00:02 (PDT)
Good morning all- Julia, just read your post and my heart and thoughts are with you. I can't imagine what you must be going through although I can imagine how you'll deal with the situation- with grace and love. Since I've been coming to this board, I've read your posts and I've read only loving, thoughtful things from you. I know instinctively that you will do your very best for Joanne and your husband. I know that perhaps right now "doing your very best" doesn't seem to be enough- for you or for them- but it is. You are an amazing woman and your daughter is VERY blessed. I would imagine that your first day's without your daughter will be difficult. No question. I do know that you will get through those days because you know that Joanne will need time with her father and you will do what's right for her- as long you know what's right for her, your choices will be easier (or at least you can live through them). You are in my thoughts today. I'm so very sorry.
Deanna <dconstab@hotmail.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Tuesday, October 09, 2001 at 07:39:03 (PDT)
oh god, Julia, I'm so sorry.
marc
USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 23:12:43 (PDT)
I feel a little numb, and I also feel like some small organ in my belly is bleeding. I never felt this way before. I didn't feel like this when the U.S. invaded Panama, and five to seven thousand civilians were killed in "collateral damage." I didn't even feel this way during or after the Iraq war. I said to my wife tonight, "Americans must generally be feeling sick, because now we know how it feels to lose innocent lives, and we know that we can't take innocent lives without a terrible price." She said, "But did you hear the reports that, when the news of the bombing was announced at ballgames around the country, crowds cheered?" My brain freezes at the thought. Are we as a society so addicted to denial? Like it's some kind of game? What is my job? Is my job to try and dig out of my personal debt to credit card companies? Find my ultimate calling as a writer? Work for peace in any way I can? But how? What, what? Has this guestbook page become subtly less hospitable and warm over the last week or so and am I partially responsible for that? I feel like a blind soul in a blind culture. Joe, thanks for your ever-tolerant and gentle postings. Everybody, thanks for being kind. Anonymous people, thanks for expressing yourselves and sending your messages, which I'll try my best to understand.
marc
USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 23:10:46 (PDT)
It was very difficult for me to get motivated to do an art project with my son's 3rd grade class today. I was deciding on a theme for a collage we were to do. It's autumn here. The leaves are turning colours and falling to the ground, there are spiders on webs at every corner you turn, and an abundance of apples, pears and pumpkins being harvested. So much beauty, so much wonder, so many ideas to choose from. Yet, I feel it joyless and overindulgent to relish in the splender of the children making art work, about spiders and webs, while other children's lives are intensionally being devastated by our U.S. leaders. On the back of one of the kid's paper, he drew a stick drawing of a person standing over another person's dead body. I asked him what that was about and he said, "That guy's just killing that other guy." I asked him why, and he said, "I dunno." My hope for my son's generation is that they will have much better and more humane conflict resolution skills than we do. Today I am feeling that my expectations of people to behave with love, kindness, respect, and compassion towards one another, towards life, is too big.
Kimberly Salerno Hunter <yowbap@home>
Oly., Wa USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 23:02:20 (PDT)
My heart is so heavy tonight. In addition to all the atrocities going on in Afghanistan, my husband came home from work tonight and said that he wants to move out; would I help him look for an apartment this weekend? After muddling through my shock, I asked him to wait a month since I just had major surgery three weeks ago, but this really is going to happen. We've been struggling for a while but I didn't think it would come to this and I feel like I've been run over by a truck. He won't go to counseling because he doesn't think he has a problem. Worst of all is our 21 month old who will be caught in the middle no matter how well we behave ourselves. Except for the five days I was in the hospital, I've been with her for most of every day of her life. I don't know how I'll get through the day when she's at her dad's. And I think this separation will mean the end of our breastfeeding relationship, long before Joanne would otherwise be ready. How do we do what's best for our children?? I think about all the kids who were suddenly made orphans or who lost a parent on September 11, and how horrible that is, but somehow we are deciding to do this to her? Why? Why?
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 23:01:29 (PDT)
Threats to withdraw oneself from participation on this peace-oriented webpage wear pretty thin when they follow eccentric rationalizations and ego-saving hair-splitting. We all know that you are not an out and out racist, Gene. You are part of our family. But you definitely ought to open your own heart and mind and try to understand your personal fears, right now, as they shape the way you're viewing the world.
You are making very offensive declarations here and acting as if you believe the rest of us buy them, simply because you say them so forcefully and harshly. GPMers are a little more independent in their thinking than you appear to believe.
How about if we all give the 'paralysis of analysis' a rest and turn the conversation to what we're all really feeling, now, as the world appears to be spiraling out of control around us. If we cannot stop what is taking place in Afghanistan and beyond, at least we can understand what it is we each feel about it and support one another in whatever ways we can.
From that, we might eventually be able to develop a coherent strategy for emerging from the losses we are now experiencing. Our individual rights, our future, and any possibility for peace in the future may well depend on it.
TNH <yeahyou@whateveryousaydude.org>
Bliss Falls, CA USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 14:40:34 (PDT)
I’m sorry, Lynn, that I offended you. But even if you yourself were a Muslim I would say the same thing. That’s just the point. YOU might be a Muslim (perhaps you are). And yet what RACE would I malign if I implied that Muslims (which would include YOU) are uncivilized, hate science, democracy, and freedom of choice? Would I disparage the entire Caucasian race? I hope you can see that would not be the case. I might hurt you in saying that, but it would hardly be a RACIAL hurt.
For what is a Muslim? Again I repeat: IT IS NOT A RACE. Even if every single Arab in the world were a Muslim (which is far from the case), still, to deprecate Islam would not be racist for "Arab" is not a race.
We do speak of the African race. Yes, if every single African in the world – including Afro-Americans, Afro-Canadians, etc. – were a Muslim, then to say "all Muslims are uncivilized" would be racist. I hope the distinction is becoming clearer because we must not confuse religion on the one hand with ethnicity or nationality on the other.
Webster’s Dictionary defines Muslim as "...a true believer in the Mohammedan faith, to submit to God, to resign one's self to the divine will." We see what the "divine will" looks like when interpreted by bin Laden and his ilk. I confess to a terrible prejudice against this kind of RELIGION, but not against any particular RACE.
Please don’t accuse me of racism. It’s totally unjust to do so. Let’s not let this crisis turn us against each other. Certainly not over a confusion of terms! Joe is right: let’s all read his message again and take it heart.
Oh, well... Last night I saw on TV a production of "King Lear" so powerful it brought me to tears. Tonight (PBS at 9:00) "The Merchant of Venice" is on TV! Shylock the Jew. Shylock the malign, scheming, avaricious Jew! Was Shakespeare a racist in portraying Shakespeare thus? This has been a matter of debate for centuries. And I would rather debate THIS question with you than the Muslim/racist thing.
Of course if I open my big fat mouth so much on this page I open myself to reproach. There is only one remedy for that, a very simple one.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 13:49:25 (PDT)
First, to Roberta (Hi Roberta!):
I want to assure you that I test all my formatted postings; I preview them in a browser window before posting them.
Judaism seems to be taking it on the chin here. I want to try and rebut to a few messages I've seen here.
First, Lynn's posting about the old testament. (Hi Lynn):
Nowhere does the so-called "old testament" exhort anyone to murder or rape. Israelite menu could not even have VOLUNTARY relations with a gentile woman for at least 30 days following capture, and even then only after she had shaved off all her hair. The Talmud make clear that these steps were designed to prevent the men from being ruled by their passions following battle, and to further discourage him by making the woman unattractive to him. I do agree with your assertion that many innocents have died in the name of Christianity and Islam
Next, June's post. (How do you do, June. Pleased to "meet" you.):
June correctly reports that Orthodox Jewish men (like myself) thank G-d for not having been made a woman. She conveniently omits the context which contradicts her point. Women were created closer to G-d's ideal of spiritual perfection. Jewish men have more commandments (obligations), and so they have a greater opportunity to serve G-d through the performance of those commandments. Angels are clearly higher than men, and they have NO commandments to follow.
There's a rather good commentary about the role of women in Orthodox Judaism (written by a woman) here.
I also want to point out that this is not a fringe view of the liberal Orthodox. My explanation comes directly from the commentary in the Artscroll Siddur; among Orthodox Jews it is by far the most commonly used prayer book in the world.
Finally, regarding Gene's posting (Hi Gene! I'm glad you knew this was coming <grin>):
Gene tells a story about an Orthodox woman who didn't want to shake his hand. He then incorrectly claims that this was because she was "impure" because "she was having her period." In fact, Orthodox Jewish men and woman always refrain from physical contact with members of the opposite sex (except for spouses & parents/children). It is true that a menstruating women may not have physical contact with her husband, but he is the only man affected by this restriction. She may shake hands with (or kiss) her son or father. In American culture, where it is considered rude to refuse to shake hands, many Orthodox Jews (including myself) will shake hands with members of the opposite sex, because it is considered a grave sin to embarrass someone. (And to leave someone's hand hanging in mid-air could definitely embarrass him/her.)
This is such a well-known and basic fact that I'm amazed that Gene could have attended an Orthodox day school for eight years without learning it.
Gene also wrote:
...for eight years in synagogue I observed women segregated in the upper balcony, unworthy to sit among men. Girls were not permitted to study torah with boys (see Barbara Streisand in "Yentyl"). Is this not the same barbaric way women are treated among the Muslims?
No, this is not the same as Islam. In fact, the women are entirely worthy. It is the men who are unworthy. Because of our lower level of spirituality, we men are too easily distracted by physical desires. That is why we must sit where we cannot view women while we are praying. You'll note that the women in balcony were not restricted from looking at men. By the way, the women's section doesn't have to be behind the men's section; in many Orthodox congregations the sections are side-by-side.
Similarly, boys are not permitted to study Torah with girls, but both are expected to study it. Most girls in my community spend 1-2 years attending seminary in Israel (after high school/before college). Barbara Streisand is not a halachic authority.
I don't think that June & Gene have it in for Judaism. I do think that they let their cultural biases influence them. They live in a country where different sex roles have traditionally been used to oppress women. So it seems logical to them that in a culture which has different roles/rules for men and women, the reason for those rules is to opress women.
If we allow our cultural biases to influence our intrepretation of foreign customs, we are bound to come to some wrong conclusions. To quote Gene:
We all must now acutely examine our hearts, our minds, our beliefs.Amen! Love to all,
Shabtai Klein <gpmguy@pwb.com>
ANN ARBOR, MI USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 13:39:39 (PDT)
Good morning all- I have to admit that I am trying very hard to be in denial right now. I haven't been able to process why. I just know I am. I haven't listened to NPR in over 3 days (I'm an NPR addict) and I refuse to read the papers or listen to news reports. No one has to tell me this is not healthy or correct response. I just don't know how to breath or go through my daily life yet with the knowledge that our country is killing people for me as a citizen of this country. It's worst than the way I feel when I know that someone is going to get executed in one of our prisons- such heaviness and sadness. I am still learning what action to take towards waging peace. I joined a "Women in Black" protest on Friday although it didn't feel even mildly enough. I feel very old and very tired right now. What adds to these feelings is the fact that the US on one hand last week was given humanitarian aid to the Afgan people, while on the other, our government was finishing the plans to bomb and kill them. My personal opinion is that I'm not very proud to be an American, let alone have my personal connection in the world community. How can I wash off the collective blood if it continues to bleed???? Not being very effective and just beginning to feel the heavy weight of war- may it stop NOW.
Deanna <dconstab@hotmail.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 11:36:04 (PDT)
i feel like this guest book has degenerated. It seems like a few people dominate it to the detriment of the feeling of community. Was it really necessary to share with the whole group this long debate about god and religion? It seems you 2 could have done it privately. Especially when it was obvious that no "debate" is going to resolve issues that are so personal. I find myself disappointed and as if the board may lost its usefulness and specialness if these sorts of things continue to such a degree. Anonymous for now
anon
USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 10:53:17 (PDT)
In these times of gathering in and questioning I'd like to offer my home to GPMers as a sanctuary for those who are traveling north or south along the Interstate 5 corrider between Canada and Mexico. One never knows when the time comes to stop before traveling onward again
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@aol.com>
Ashland, OR USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 10:00:05 (PDT)
In such times our nerves are frayed and our emotions are on edge. It is essential for us to forgive each other our outbursts which represent our current crazed states of mind. It is essential to center ourselves before we try and communicate our thoughts and feelings to each other in order that we add to positive dialogue rather than detract. Every religion has both positive and negative aspects. No one faith can possible have the answer for each of us. Tolerance and compassion are all that we can really offer one another. I love you all. Blessings to all our suffering relations.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 09:51:57 (PDT)
Gene:"Many, many Arabs are not Muslims: they are civilized, love science, democracy, and freedom of choice." Gene, if you mean to categorize all Muslims as none-of-the-above, you are vastly out of touch with reality. I do not want to believe you are saying all Muslims are uncivilized! That would be quite unworthy of any peace-minded person, such racist-like thinking.
Lynn Nadeau
WA USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 08:21:55 (PDT)
I can only make a few simple points, Frank. First, the review of the book "Why I Am Not A Muslim" was written by Dr. Ali Sina. The author is Ibn Warraq. Both come from Muslim countries. I’m not sure but I believe both are Arabs. Definitely both were born into the Muslim religion. They had the courage to reject Islam, which to do, as we all should know, is a capital crime. What does that mean – death? Yes, death to the apostate, death to the unbeliever, death to the infidel! These men are now SECULAR, they are freethinkers, they no longer are Muslims. Islam is a religion, not a race. To denounce the religion is NOT to be racist. We must not identify Arab with Muslim. Many, many Arabs are not Muslims: they are civilized, love science, democracy, and freedom of choice. We must support these Arabs but not the Muslims. Many, many Arabs, at great danger to themselves and family, have turned against their despotic religion. They are all over the Internet. Please look at http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/home.htm
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 01:34:17 (PDT)
Thank you Frank for your excellent and thought-provoking message. It bears much study and it is late at night. I hope tomorrow to do justice to the very important points you raise. Amazing what we're learning about each other in all this! Peace, brother, and thanks for everything - especially the civilized tone of your letter (in contrast to the one I sent your way).
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Monday, October 08, 2001 at 00:19:36 (PDT)
Gene's summary, of the Why I am not a Muslim book, lists the numerous atrocities of Muslim history. Unfortunately, one could write a parallel critique of Christianity (and some other major religions). The Old Testament (Leviticus etc if I recall) exhorts the Chosen people to pillage, murder, rape, to leave no man woman child beast place of worship standing, as God is awarding lands to them. Then Crusades, Inquisitions, and all that. Religions, for the most part, are as much about "power over" as personal ethics, again and again. Enough to give the numinous a bad name.
Lynn Nadeau
WA USA - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 22:44:55 (PDT)
Another important distinction: June, when you speak of local Black Muslims, I think you probably mean members of the American group, Nation of Islam, founded by Elijah Mohammed some time in the 20th century. (I'm not sure exactly when; I believe it may have been in the 1950s.). Malcolm X was a member of the Nation of Islam, until he discovered the broader world of Islam, and at that time became he became a lot less militant and more tolerant of white people, though no less committed to the struggles of African-Americans. The Nation of Islam is a kind of black nationalist movement, and its philosophy, while based on classic Islam, is a very different package.
Marc
USA - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 21:16:38 (PDT)
Good grief, Gene and June! Now, I am honestly worried about you both. This review you've posted, and the book it assesses (if the book bears any resemblance whatsoever to the reviewer's perspective), is as racist as anything I've seen, since a sweet little old Swedish 'Grandmother' tried to sell me a copy of "The Myth of The Six Million" from beneath the counter of her booth at the Minnesota State Fair, back in the 70's. The organization's banner on her booth read "Christian Research" and my utter shock was only compounded by her twinkling eyes and smiling, craggy little face as she offered me the book with her dainty, wrinkled little hand -- a hand which might just as easily have held a plateful of cookies. "Read this," she murmured with a conspiratorial wink, "It'll explain a whole lot of things for you." Considering myself a Marxist-Leninist, at that time, I righteously backed away like I'd been just about to shake hands with a rattlesnake, but her age, frailty and my early socialization prevented me from confronting her. It was a virtual epiphany for me, though, in terms of glimpsing how deeply the cancer of racism runs in our world. I was speechless. All I could think to do was grab my wife's hand and flee. I'm not sure how to ask it without coming off as judgmental and condemning, but have either of you actually ever known a non-American Muslim well enough to find out what his or her religion meant to him or her? Or, have you ever lived in a Muslim country for any period of time? I was fortunate enough to spend a year in Turkey, while I was in the Army back in 1969, and although I can't claim to have come away with a sophisticated understanding of the culture, I can tell you that my experience was significantly different from what your reviewer is presenting here. There are a billion Muslims out there in dozens of countries, the vast majority of whom are undoubtedly as horrified by the direction our world is now taking as either you or I. It seems to me that trying to understand them and their various cultures would be a much more productive path to peace than fostering hatred for, alienation from and dis-information about them, as this author has done. I no longer consider myself a Marxist, having found that path to be just as dogmatic, and devoid of truth and feeling, as my Evangelical Covenant childhood, but I do respect the commitment to critical-thinking that honest dialectical-materialism demands. My guess is that we could all benefit from a deeper exploration of that quality. Peace.
Frank <peacegeek@hotmail.com>
Minneapolis, MN USA - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 19:41:20 (PDT)
Gene thinks I did not make myself clear. The Muslim scarf is a badge of oppression, I should have said; the religious scarf is a symbol of slavery. That's why I will not wear it.
June <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 18:30:56 (PDT)
This is June, Gene's partner. As you can imagine I read all the GPM postings avidly and often discuss them with Gene. But this time I feel I must speak up myself in response to Roberta's 10/5 posting re: US women wearing the Muslim scarf to show solidarity with Muslim women.
I find this absolutely horrifying, since to me that scarf is the symbol of the phony "respect for women." This, carried to its logical conclusion, leads to the imposition of the burquah in Afghanistan.
In Orthodox Judaism the man prays to God thanking him for having not been born a woman. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and most established religions promote "reverence for women" while keeping them in their place (kinder and kuchen) except when it is convenient to put them to work at half the pay. Are you aware that in private many of our local Black Muslims refer to their wives as "the kitchen?”
Sorry, but on October 8th I would prefer to dye my hair green and put it in spikes a la the Statue of Liberty, to show my solidarity with downtrodden women, and my resistance to tyranny, especially in its most subtle, reverent religious form.
June <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 17:35:58 (PDT)
Many fantastic Web sites exist published by “Secular Islam,” by “Muslim Freethinkers,” and such. Here is a review of a tremendous book I read ten years ago. (I will try to format this long post.)
WHY I AM NOT A MUSLIM A review of the book By Dr. Ali Sina
In “Why I Am Not A Muslim” Ibn Warraq exposes the bitter truth about Islam without sugarcoating it. Warraq talks about the brutal treatments of all those who fell under the domination of Islam, from the time of Muhammad to the present day. He talks about the minorities, philosophers, women and slaves in Islam. Jews were massacred and exiled by Muhammad in Medina and Kheibar; their belongings were distributed among the “believers,” their women and children taken as slaves. This heinous act of barbarism was repeated time and again throughout history with Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and in recent years with Ahmedies, Baha’is and other minorities in Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, India, Syria and everywhere Islam reined.
The reader becomes familiar with Muhammad’s favorite way of eliminating his opponents, namely assassination. Asma Bint Marwan, a poetess who wrote against the prophet, was assassinated by his order in the middle of the night while nursing her infant. Her five small children where forced to convert to Islam. Muhammad’s hit list also included Ka’b Ibn al-Ashraf and Abu Rafi who spoke against him and had to be taken out traitorously. This policy was adopted by Muslims throughout history and is being practiced up to this day. What we call terrorism, to a Muslim is Jihad (holy war).
Islam was established through force and bloodshed. No argument, no reason, no logic was ever given but the blade of the sword. Masses were kept in ignorance. Muslims have no knowledge of Quran and are not aware of its naivete and inhumane character. Should they read Quran in their own language and understand it, they would be disappointed to see that the book, far from being a “miracle” is a hoax: poorly written, full of errors and bereft of beauty.
Through Islam, many civilized nations lost their identity, their dignity and humanity to bow in front of a savage god of a bunch of uncultured Arabs and to follow the whims of a fanatic and schizophrenic bloodthirsty madman of Arabia. Islam is the enemy of science, of freethinking, of reason and of human rights. It acts as a powerful break on the advancement of civilization. Warraq keenly points out that “Islamic Civilization” is a contradiction in terms. You can either be Islamic or civilized. In another place he argues that “Islamic Philosophy” is also a contradiction in terms, because philosophy was regarded as a “foreign science, which led to heresy, doubt, and total unbelief.” Brilliant minds like Zacharia Razi and Avicena never believed in Islam and were attacked by Muslims.
Islam does not leave room for leniency and tolerance. Islam and fundamentalism are synonymous terms. You have to break the laws of Muhammad, just to keep your humanity and be good. No amount of intellectual acrobatics performed by Muslim apologists can justify the intolerant and ruthlessness of Muhammad’s religion.
Among other things we learn about is Muhammad’s preference for young girls (Ayesha was 9 years old when he consummated his “marriage” with her) at rather an advanced age, and how he is unabashed to make Allah reveal Quranic verses to justify his lust for women and his sexual appetite. [Exactly like Joseph Smith! (Gene)]
You will learn about Muhammad’s metamorphosis from preacher to despot. How his call for tolerance, when he was still in Mecca and weak changed to the cry of killing and looting when he became powerful in Medina. You will learn how Muhammad encouraged his handful of followers to attack the caravans, kill the men, rape the women and bring the booty (20% for himself) to please Allah, while assuring them that if they are killed their rewards will be “young boys,” rivers of wine, and many virgins in the other world. All what Warraq says is backed by Quran and Ahadith.
Islam has silenced all voices of reason throughout history. But now is a different time. The Internet, although strictly censored in Islamic countries, is becoming accessible even to Muslims. Freethinkers can write and publish without fear of persecution.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 17:11:23 (PDT)
Happy Birthday Gene!
Coleen Ashly <Nukebuster@aol.com>
Earth - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 14:53:21 (PDT)
I don't know to whom that last post was directed - to all of us it would seem. It's an attack on everyone on this Web page just as the Trade Center attacks were against every one of us. And they are called COWARDLY attacks precisely because they were anonymous - just like this latest poster. No more cowardly posts from "Pastor Joes" and "Colonel Toms" and, yes, even from TEACH and TNH. It's open war now; come out into the open!
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 14:15:25 (PDT)
In times of social disorder,
when all is said and done,
some may choose to avoid their fears
through mental masturbation.
Colonel Tom <... and the issue was?>
USA...USA..., USA - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 14:03:40 (PDT)
Yes, our titanic struggle is over for the moment, and I’m very happy with the way it ended. I’m only sorry I did not offer YOU a draw at the end of my last long post. By that’s okay, it’s all the same, and everyone here is happy. Now I’d like to resume the piece I began earlier. Please don’t jump all over me, Marc. You like to pose a mighty opposite to every point I make, and that is fine, that is wonderful, that’s in the best Socratic tradition of dialectics and all. I love you for it! But let me go back to my childhood in Hebrew school. I know you like my stories. This one bears on the current crisis (the bombs are falling now in Kabul and 200 terrorist threats against America were made in the last thirty-six hours). What goes on in the minds of the Muslim fanatics that they enslave their women so? At my little yeshiva in Bridgeport, Connecticut I was deemed such a good rabbinical student that I was sent to the very great yeshiva in Brooklyn, New York. This was a dormitory school but it shut down on weekends; we were all farmed out to private homes until Monday. I went to thank a woman who hosted me; I offered her my hand. She drew hers back in horror! Later I was told that she was having her period, she was unclean and impure and could not touch me. Of course for eight years in synagogue I observed women segregated in the upper balcony, unworthy to sit among men. Girls were not permitted to study torah with boys (see Barbara Streisand in “Yentyl”). Is this not the same barbaric way women are treated among the Muslims? I fear now, with Shabtai on this page again, I risk opening a debate with HIM such as we just concluded, Marc. But let it be! We all must now acutely examine our hearts, our minds, our beliefs. The bombs are falling in Kabul.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 11:44:09 (PDT)
Gene, your last little post to me was so sweet it brought tears to my eyes. Now that our little contest is played out, can we adjudicate it a draw? I'd be honored and amply satisfied by that result. Hey everybody else! Please come back out and play!
marc
USA - Sunday, October 07, 2001 at 10:10:35 (PDT)
Julia, I wonder if Pastor Joe is a put-on. Who was that guy who followed and harangued us early in the March? He carried a big Jesus sign and even dragged a huge heavy cross - so heavy it was supported by a little wheel on the end touching the ground. Was he Pastor Joe? No, Bible Bob!
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 23:30:29 (PDT)
Yes Marc, the warmest cyberhug to you! We may have carpet bombed the web site, but it was love bombing, you might say. For intellectual love is the highest form of all. You and I were locked in a beautiful intellectual embrace, and in that great hug we gave much intellectual pleasure to all our Peace March friends.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 23:20:37 (PDT)
Bin Laden is the most notorious advocate of a potent strain of militant Islam that has been gaining popularity in the Muslim world for 30 years. It is simultaneously theological and cultural. Its fundamental tenet is that the Muslim world is being poisoned and desecrated by infidels. These infidels include both outsiders such as the United States and Israel, and governments of Muslim states—such as Egypt and Jordan—that have committed apostasy. The infidels must be driven out of the Muslim world by a jihad, and strict Islamic rule must be established everywhere that Muslims live. These extreme "Islamists," as Bin Laden biographer Yossef Bodansky dubs them, hope to re-establish the Caliphate, the golden age of Muslim domination that followed the death of Muhammad. They regard the Taliban's Afghanistan as a model for such Islamic rule.
This Islamist militancy has ancient roots—Saladin's expulsion of the crusaders in the 12th century is one starting point—but it was galvanized in the 1970s by several events. The growing influence of secular Western capitalism in the Muslim world, the military triumphs of Israel, and the Russian invasion of Afghanistan horrified Islamic traditionalists. The Afghanistan invasion was the culminating moment: It persuaded Bin Laden and thousands of others of the need for Islamic holy war. Their fervor has only increased since, fueled by the Palestinian intifada, the Gulf War, the American operation in Somalia, and other conflicts of Islam with the West.
(The Islamists are not merely Pan-Arab but Pan-Islamic. Bin Laden is exceptional in his ability to recruit from all over the Muslim world. The Sunni Muslim world, that is. Bin Laden and his allies follow a very strict Sunni Islam.)
That is Bin Laden's general philosophy. What is his particular grievance against the United States? According to CNN's Peter Bergen, author of a forthcoming book on Bin Laden, Holy War, Inc., Bin Laden is most enraged by the American military presence in Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden was incensed when the Saudis invited U.S. troops to their defense after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Bin Laden—like many Muslims—considers the continued presence of these armed infidels in Saudi Arabia the greatest possible desecration of the holy land. That is why he sponsored bombings of the American military facilities in Saudi Arabia, why he has tried to destabilize the Saudi government, and why the embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed on Aug. 7, 1998—eight years to the day after the first American troops were dispatched to Saudi Arabia.
Bin Laden is also furious about American support for Israel. He detests Jews and views the United States as the Jewish lackey. ("[Jews] believe that all humans are created for their use, and they found that the Americans are the best-created beings for that use," Bin Laden has said.) His supporters seem particularly exercised by Israel's reaction to the current intifada, Bergen says. Bin Laden also can't tolerate American alliances with moderate Arab governments in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait.
Mainstream Muslims denounce Bin Laden's bloody-mindedness—in 1998 he issued a fatwa calling for attacks on all Americans—but he has found plenty of firebrand clerics to offer Quranic backing for his belief that terrorism is glorious. According to Bodansky, these mullahs insist that all methods of war, including terrorism, are justified in the battle against the infidels. (Bin Laden, holding up a Quran, puts it this way: "You cannot defeat the heretic with this book alone. You have to show them the fist.")
Bin Laden has strategic reasons to believe in terrorism, too. The Muslim victory over the Soviet Union in Afghanistan showed him that superpowers are not so superpowerful. And the ignominious American withdrawal from Somalia—following a Bin Laden connected attack—convinced him that the United States is morally weak. The U.S. soldier is "a paper tiger" who crumples after "a few blows."
It is a mistake to assume that killing Bin Laden means killing his movement. It's true that Bin Laden is an iconic leader who inspires his followers and millions of sympathizers in the Muslim world. But eliminating Bin Laden would do nothing to decrease the intensity of the other militant Islamists. The Afghan war created a cadre of warriors and belligerent clerics who are constantly recruiting. Bin Laden has a core of highly trained aides ready to continue his work. His trainees are scattered in two dozen countries. It is hard to imagine how the United States could neutralize all of them. And attacks on Bin Laden have only increased his popularity: Killing him would likely rally many more Muslims to his cause.
(Some pundits have suggested that killing Bin Laden would be effective because it would stanch the flow of cash to terrorists. This may not be so. Bin Laden's groups do get funds from his personal fortune, but they also finance operations by dunning wealthy Gulf Arabs and by siphoning off donations to Muslim charities. And the terror organization is cheap. They don't use heavy weapons, and it costs almost nothing to house and train hundreds of men in Afghanistan.)
Is there anything we can do to persuade Bin Laden to stop? The terror groups Americans are familiar with—Palestinian bombers and hijackers, IRA hard men—have desires we understand. They perform acts of terror in order to gain sympathy or sow fear. That sympathy or fear is a means to their end: political recognition, a state, compensation. They seek to participate in our world.
But Bin Laden and his followers are alarming because they don't want anything from us. They don't want our sympathy. They want no material thing we can offer them. They don't want to participate in the community of nations. (They don't really believe in the nation-state.) They are motivated by religion, not politics. They answer to no one but their god, so they certainly won't answer to us.
Just a bit of info
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 20:48:06 (PDT)
Will someone please email me when this discussion/debate has changed into a less volatile/opinionated subject--like abortion for instance.
Elizabeth <elizabirth@aya.yale.edu>
Dallas, USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 19:15:17 (PDT)
Pastor Joe, whoever you are, I feel like you're baiting those of us who do not share your faith. At first, I considered not responding at all. But I'd like to very briefly point out that it's folks like you, spewing stuff just like that, that made me RUN from Catholicism. When you spout stuff like that, it becomes clear that you are NOT listening to what people have to say, and that you are NOT thinking about the questions that people present either openly or in their hearts. If I want beautiful inspirations, I'll turn to Jonathan Livingston Seagull before I'd ever turn to this "God is love" stuff. Especially after the ugly things that have been done and said to me in the name of religion and "God". If you want to get into a real discussion instead of spouting homilies, I encourage you to include your email address in your posting. Peace.
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 17:23:45 (PDT)
p.s. you know, Gene, in our philosophical ardor, I hope that you and I have not carpet bombed this guestbook page. :-)
marc
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 16:55:43 (PDT)
By the way, Roberta, to address a question you posed a while ago, I don't see any contradiction between believing in spirit/soul and being a materialist. At the risk of using words ambiguously, I agree that Marx's thought was "spiritual."
marc
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 16:53:20 (PDT)
Hey Gene, have a cyber hug, you godless Bolshevik you. I, like you, am more comfortable with philosophy than economics and political science . . . because the messy details of life are generally too complex and depressing for me. Thank goodness for Roberta and others, who offer some informed intelligence on these daunting details.
marc
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 16:42:45 (PDT)
Dear Roberta, please don’t apologize for "butting in with that sour topic of economics." It’s absolutely essential that you do! NOW is the time, when the world is not at the BRINK of disaster, but deep into it. Look at the airlines. Billions and billions of dollars flow to them now. OUR dollars! Well if it’s our money let them be OUR airlines. Or should our money go for obscene profits and bloated CEO salaries while thousands and thousands of airline workers are fired without even severance pay? Nationalize the airlines! If they’re going to take the people’s money, let’s make them the people’s airlines. We can be a tremendous team, Roberta, if you will specialize on the economic side of the problem here while I continue with the philosophical. For even on this page, with the exceptional people we have on the Peace March, I think all too few know the perspective from which we come. We can do a great service in this time of crisis. Socialism, atheism – NOW is the time to advance these ideas.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 15:53:34 (PDT)
Happy birthday, Gene.
marc
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 15:34:21 (PDT)
Yes Marc, it’s true: the fun is draining out of this. It’s getting serious now, we’re fighting for our lives – defending our deepest belief systems with our very lives. If I fought this hard in chess I would be the greatest player in the world. But just like you I’m a nice guy too - too nice to be a killer on that board of sixty-four squares. Yet I do fight this hard in philosophy which is infinitely more important than chess. Yes, I do want to win. The fate of the world hangs on a precipice called philosophy. The Muslim maniacs, while we debate, make ready their poisonous plans. They do not reason; they kill. They cut the throats of airline stewardesses and fly the planes/bombs into office buildings holding thousands of people. And when I say "Muslim maniacs" you know precisely who I am talking about – not the students in your English classes! That’s where YOU were dishonest with me. I did not speak of ALL religious people as you charged, but of those who MURDER for god. No, you have been dishonest with ME. I already pointed out how you baited me: "Do you defend the Soviet Union? Are you a Commie? We all know what a Commie is. See the Communist tied to the post! Let’s get to work on him!" But enough! Let’s not endanger our friendship, which I value - not even for philosophy. I like you Marc, and was well disposed to accept your offer of a draw and call off our debate. But then Julia... She declares that in her "heart of hearts" she is an atheist. Yet you would not hear her. You would delve into her heart, tear out her principled beliefs. And for what? For agnosticism? Agnosticism is not intellectually superior to atheism - certainly not morally superior. Quite the contrary! Its operating principle is "Whatever works for me! What makes me feel good." Agnosticism is still sitting on the fence with "I do not know, we cannot know, who want’s to know..?" OK, enough. I’m going off to enjoy my birthday (same day as John Lennon’s) at a hot spring. I do love you Marc. I don’t know who is going to have the last word on this, how what we started will all end. Perhaps we should embrace and laugh at it all.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 13:32:44 (PDT)
For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son that, whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but, instead, have everlasting life. God loves each of you and He hears the anguish in your tortured arguments. Have faith in Him and everything is knowable. God will show you the way, if only you will let go of your false beliefs and allow him into your hearts. God loves you all, my brothers and sisters. God is Love.
Pastor Joe
Everytown, USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 11:44:02 (PDT)
YOU CAN do very little with faith, but you can do nothing without it," said Samuel Butler. I found that quote on the NYPost gossip page, of all places. I would add...even if your faith is that there is nothing to have faith in!
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 11:00:28 (PDT)
Fair enough, Julia. It was presumptuous of me to question your self-declared identification. But I didn't do it because I want you to change your label. You had described a search for "God" in which you explored a large number of different religions and found something objectionable, unpalatable, or simply unbelievable in each one. So all I was saying that was that perhaps the place to search for God, IF you were still looking, was in churches and other such institutions, but rather the depths of your own heart. However, I don't want to make the same mistake twice: I am not presuming you HAVEN'T searched your own heart. I'm only saying that that isn't what you had described earlier, and that's what prompted me to offer, somewhat condescendingly (sorry), that you don't have to choose between religion and atheism.
marc
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 09:51:15 (PDT)
Marc, Don't worry, I know I don't have to be an atheist because I don't have religion, I choose to identify that way because I believe that no diety exists. I think a lot of people find this just as confusing as the fact that I identify myself as bisexual while being married and monogamous for more than five years... one person said to me, "What's the point? Why identify as something that's going to cause trouble for you?" Partly because I like to draw my boundaries in the way that feels right to me, largely because I feel the need to be true to myself even when it's inconvenient, and partly because I enjoy challenging the assumptions of others. :-) And those people who think I'm all quiet, settled, and hetero didn't know me when I was 25, but that's another story! LOL In much the same way, it would take pages and would be very boring indeed to explain exactly why I indentify as an atheist, so just trust me, I really do actively choose this label. P.S. I also identify as a secular humanist.
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 07:23:43 (PDT)
Two more cents: While I could argue for communism as a system, I could never support the former Soviet Union in any way. If the system requires totalitarianism and the systematic murder of millions, I want nothing to do with it. Most of us have heard of Stalin's excesses, but I, for one, have only recently begun to learn of Lenin's large scale murderous programs. In the past, I argued for Lenin and thought his revolution was corrupted by Stalin, but I can no longer support Lenin in any way. Also, I find it sad and disappointing that the cadets who claimed to want to establish democracy were overthrown by Lenin. Lenin and his thugs did not overthrow the Czars as so many people believe, he overthrew a six month old revolution. Letting others do his heavy lifting. Despite being an atheist state, the Soviet Union could never eliminate the orthodox church, which brings me to the point I set out to make here. I find it fascinating that in Poland, where I would say the Soviet Union began to fall, it was a coalition of the labor unions and the catholic church that undid the communist party. If Soviet Communism was so great, why did the leaders of the labor unions put their lives on the line to end it? The current Pope is arguably in power because of his role in bringing down the Soviet Union.
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 04:09:13 (PDT)
By God, I'm not done! Gene, you made a couple of reasonable points that I want to respond to. (because I admire and enjoy reason, even if I don't think reason is God). You ask, How do I KNOW that there are things we can't know? Well . . . good question. I think I deduced that there are things we can't know, or at least can't understand, when I pointed out that rationality buckles at the notion of "the beginning of time" because what happened before that and before that, etc. and we can't "get our minds around" the paradox of eternity. So my conclusion from that is that we live in the midst of a paradox that our reason is unequipped to comprehend, and that therefore, the ultimate nature of existence is (I would conclude) beyond our conception as well. BUT . . . granted, this is not definitive proof. As Evan pointed out, our capacity to know and understand is growing and growing. Now, what was that other thing? . . . oh yeah. I seem to revel in mystery and unknowing. Well, it's true. I do. I like not knowing everything. I think life would be boring if we knew everything. I think that having to figure out the meaning of life, not being handed any definitive answers, is a fantastic impetus to stretch and learn and keep pushing against my limitations. I think it's a very stimulating condition of existence. For a brief time in my life, I thought I knew the Answer. (long story, and I WON'T post it) It was far and away the most boring, lifeless period of my life.
Marc
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 01:17:25 (PDT)
Hey BJ, I loved your post, and the one before it too, about your faith and about loving and being loved, and that being "proof" enough of God. I don't think of it as religion per se, because I think of religion as a system that's formally established, not an intimate, intuitive, personal faith such as what I think you are describing. I think I share a similar faith. I just call myself an agnostic because, though I believe, I do not claim to KNOW.
And frankly, Gene, that's what I was referring to when I spoke of "what works for me." I was talking about my own experience of God. You can excerpt my words out of context and make any meaning from them that you want, but I never said, or implied, that truth is subjective. I think experiences of God and divinity are necessarily subjective, yes (at least I think so), but that does not mean that everything is morally relative, and I confess I feel somewhat annoyed that you twisted my words in that way. I was speaking of a personal internal relationship to God, not a code of ethics to live by in relationship to others. I think you know that, but at this point you're devolving into semantic warfare and that isn't fun (for me).
You are right (and I've been aware all along) that I use rationality to throw rationality into question, and to shed light on rationality's relative status. But again, you are shamelessly twisting my words and my ideas when you call this "an attack on intelligence." I love intelligence, I love rationality, I think these things are incredible gifts, incredible tools--some of the very best we have. But I do not invest them with godlike powers. And just because I don't invest them with godlike powers does NOT mean I make ignorance into god either, Gene. And again, I suspect you know this, but now you've gotten so wrapped up in trying to "win" that you're not playing fair anymore. I'm serious. When you twist my words so that I have to waste all my energy untangling them, it completely takes the joy out of this debate for me. I pray (forgive the term) you'll make an effort to be a bit more respectful and honest from here on out.
Marc Polonsky <marcwordsmith@sfo.com>
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 01:02:57 (PDT)
Well Marc, for a moment it looked like you were offering me a draw. I was prepared to accept, at least as far as the chess metaphor goes. (After all, it would have been the best result I’ve ever achieved against you.) But then I look at the page and see you’ve posted still another message, one more strike against atheism. And you even go so far as to tell Julia she doesn’t have to be an atheist! Looks like we’ll have to continue our discussion; everyone is enjoying it so much anyway. Let’s forget the chess stuff and try to do this in a non-competitive way. I admire your intellect enormously. That’s why I find it so incongruous - laughable really - that you use your intelligence to argue against intelligence. "We are born into a mystery," you say. "There are things we can't know." This is quite a bald statement. How do you KNOW we can’t know? Where do you get such certainty on this? Wherever it comes from, you don’t lament our "inability to know," you seem to celebrate it, revel in it, to almost gloat about it. "Given the limits of our cognitive ability, I think the Truth is unknowable." You employ on this page and in front of all these people many logical arguments all to argue against logic. You use reason to discredit reason. You make a god of our SUPPOSED ignorance. "I know it's not rational," you say, "but rational ain't everything. It works for me, and there's my evidence." It works for you, huh? Is that the only standard of truth? Is there such a thing as truth? No! What works for you is all the truth you know. Everyone then has his own truth, whatever makes her "feel good." Total moral relativity in the world! If we WERE playing a chesslike match with the fate of the world at stake Marc, then I shudder to think of the outcome should you win. If you are right then Martin Luther King, Jr. and Hitler are interchangeable; both "feel good" about what "works for them." If you are right, then Gandhi was evil and bin Laden is a saint. Sure, why not if all truth is subjective? If truth is only subjective – if we abandon objective truth and reason – by what means shall we sway, influence, or persuade each other of anything? By FORCE?
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Saturday, October 06, 2001 at 00:07:59 (PDT)
Thanks for the tip Marc. You are the best! And I won't point out the typos in the last message. I'm guessing you've already spotted them.
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 22:58:42 (PDT)
Ahem
What am I, chopped liver over here? Okay, my 'I practice an earth-based faith' didn't have the word religion included, but I DID say that my faith works for me.
It's tough to describe why I feel so at home in this particularly spiritual endeavor, but I think it really has to do with three things.
Having a connection to the movements of the moon and the tides of nature, which feels like the 'science' of it.
A direct connection to God. In a completely different context this evening, someone said to me,"God needs no emissary and I have to agree. I bear so much distrust toward the constructs of man, that I just can't take seriously "beieve God said this because I told you so."
And the requirement to LIVE one's faith everyday in all one's doing. I cannot NOT live my faith in everything I do, which makes me suspicious of religions that require specific attendance in order to prove one's piety. If you aren't living it on the street, what good is listening to someone talk about it in a steepled building?
I too have searched through endless different faith traditions to find a sense of belonging and truth. In the end, mine is a solitary practice, for the most part, but the truth shines through everything I see around me. It is beautiful, rich, challenging and, in the end, one of the greatest gifts of my life.
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 22:56:42 (PDT)
At the risk of obnoxiously hogging the page, a couple more clarifications: Gene, you assert that Soviets were more civilized than "Muslim maniacs." Well, I guess any large demographic of people is more civilized than any group of "maniacs." By the same token, the Muslims of the world, as a group, are a good deal more civilized than the atheist maniacs. And for the record, I've known a handful of Muslims in my English classes over the years. Every single one of them has been earnest, respectful, thoughtful, and profoundly gentle. All in all, as a group, more "civilized" than their secular counterparts, at least in my English classes.
Also, it occurs to me: Gene is making a case for atheism, Evan and I have made a case for agnosticism, but I don't see a strong voice in this debate for religion in general, or for any specific religious faith in particular. If someone who reads this page, and who has a strong religious conviction, wants to step up to the plate and join the discussion, I think this would add a very rich dimension to the forum.
marc
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 22:27:20 (PDT)
that should have been "modes of address", not "modes address"
marc
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 21:29:34 (PDT)
p.s. Roberta, please stay in the discussion. It's all relevant.
And Julia, just because you can't be religious doesn't mean you have to be an atheist. It's not an either/or choice. I'm not religious, nor am I an atheist. I once saw Bill Maher on Larry King Live, and Larry asked Bill if he believed in God. Bill sort of reluctantly said yes, but that organized religious was . . . well, bogus. (I'm paraphrasing.) He said something like, "Your relationship with God is supposed to be this extremely personal thing. Organized religions, with all their levels of bureaucracy and ritual and prescribed behaviors and permissable modes address to the Almighty, are like dealing with the DMV."
marc
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 21:28:36 (PDT)
I apologize, Julia. I didn't mean to ignore you. And if you're still looking for GPM tapes, please email me. I was waiting for someone else to help you out, since I've sent out a number of tapes to people at this point and it's a little time-consuming. But if no one else has stepped up yet, I'd be glad to do it for you.
hey look! Formatting!
Marc
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 21:21:35 (PDT)
Sorry to have posted twice! The perils of computing when there's a toddler driving the mouse!! LOL
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 21:19:29 (PDT)
Marc, As it has been noted before, I declared myself an atheist on this page long before the discussion even cropped up, so Gene is not the only one. Basically, I am a failed Catholic... they tried to make me believe it, but it never did "take". Once in a while, I feel like there might be some karma at work in the universe, but I do not think that justifies belief in some "higher power", at least not for me.
I think organized religion has done some good and a lot of harm. Many would argue about the ratio of one to the other, of course, but that doesn't really matter. I'm glad that religion helps those that it comforts and creates community for, and there are other times, like when we're reeling from yet another fundamentalist-created atrocity, when I wish that there was no religion at all. Ultimately, I think it is very human to want religion as it provides explanations for a number of things that just seem unknowable and unfathomable. Trust me, I've struggled to find religion... I've attended and tried to assimilate with Unitarians, Universalists, Unitarian-Universalists, Quakers, Wiccans, and Presbyterians. Oh, and even Lutherans. I like the ritual, I like the music, I like the community, sometimes I even like the food, :-) but I never can seem to make myself swallow the belief system that everyone else there holds. The UUs come the closest for me, because they believe that everyone has the right to their own thoughts about religion, but even then, the overtly Judeo-Christian stuff ends up making me gag. So, I feel that in my heart of hearts, I am an atheist. I don't think there's any higher power. And now back to the peaceful discussion...
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 21:17:52 (PDT)
Marc, As it has been noted before, I declared myself an atheist on this page long before the discussion even cropped up, so Gene is not the only one. Basically, I am a failed Catholic... they tried to make me believe it, but it never did "take". Once in a while, I feel like there might be some karma at work in the universe, but I do not think that justifies belief in some "higher power", at least not for me.
I think organized religion has done some good and a lot of harm. Many would argue about the ratio of one to the other, of course, but that doesn't really matter. I'm glad that religion helps those that it comforts and creates community for, and there are other times, like when we're reeling from yet another fundamentalist-created atrocity, when I wish that there was no religion at all. Ultimately, I think it is very human to want religion as it provides explanations for a number of things that just seem unknowable and unfathomable. Trust me, I've struggled to find religion... I've attended and tried to assimilate with Unitarians, Universalists, Unitarian-Universalists, Quakers, Wiccans, and Presbyterians. Oh, and even Lutherans. I like the ritual, I like the music, I like the community, sometimes I even like the food, :-) but I never can seem to make myself swallow the belief system that everyone else there holds. The UUs come the closest for me, because they believe that everyone has the right to their own thoughts about religion, but even then, the overtly Judeo-Christian stuff ends up making me gag. So, I feel that in my heart of hearts, I am an atheist. I don't think there's any higher power. And now back to the peaceful discussion...
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 21:17:30 (PDT)
Well, Gene, you're right--I butted in with that sour topic of economics when you and Marc were having such a good time philosophically. I love philosophy too, and you two make it a pleasure to observe it. So, keep it up! I guess I'm just too intense--I want there to be an ANSWER to all this mess, and I think that in this case economic democracy, not God, is it. It's funny--can I be a materialist and believe in spirit/soul too? I think even Marx had something of a spirituality about him. The title of the little red book was originally Communist Catechism (sp?), not Manifesto. Indeed, I've long observed the similarities between Christianity (and probably other religions) and communism. For instance, Christianity exhorts us to share with the least of us, while Marx exhorts us, from a different perspective, to have a planned economy in which all benefit. I think we are made of material, and much of what affects us is the real stuff--weather, genes, economics, oppression, privilege, etc. But I also believe in the ability of the mind/spirit to transcend some of the material limitations. For instance, I'm amazed listening to NPR how many people are saying "No War!" and how many are clued into our foreign policy fiascos, which have helped set up this recent atrocity. They have transcended the beat of the war drum, even though our country has been horribly attacked. Now a group of US women are going to wear the Muslim scarf in solidarity with Muslim women on Oct. 8. That is transcending fear. Back to you, boys. ;+))
Roberta
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 21:14:57 (PDT)
p.s. Roberta, I'll be REALLY careful.
Marc
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 20:23:19 (PDT)
Gene, you are the most congenial opponent I've ever had, over the chess board, or any other gameboard. Hmmm. Well, I guess you're right. You conceded that an idea cannot GUARANTEE better behavior, but you didn't say that an idea can't ENCOURAGE better behavior. I'll confess what my hidden agenda is here, Gene. I just don't think that that particular argument is win-able by either of us. How can we really quantify, or even estimate, whether or not there are more humanistic and compassionate and sane atheists than there are humanistic and compassionate and sane religious people? I just don't see how there could be any way of knowing or deducing such statistics, but if you want to keep the argument open for a while . . . okay, let's leave the tournament director alone for now. Maybe you can argue WHY atheism WOULD encourage better behavior than religion. By the way, a little history, folks, for anyone who could care: Gene and I have played a total of 4 chess games. The first two were on the march. In both those games, Gene systematically built up a winning advantage, then blundered carelessly and lost. The third game was played at Harbin Hot Springs, when I visited and Gene was working/living there. I was eager for a game, so Gene graciously consented to play me, even as he tried to run a store and wait on customers at the same time. That was his worst game, naturally. The last one was a postal game. Gene again slowly built up a systematic advantage, but when I made one unexpected move, which allowed me to temporarily avoid defeat, Gene lamented in a note, "Oh darn, I didn't see that. Now I feel a blunder coming on." Sure enough, on his next move, he blundered a bishop. Why am telling everyone this? Just to point out that Gene is a little overly humble. And in this particular game, wherein he is the only atheist on the page, and I have the support of many different stripes of believers, we are not playing on a level game board of course. But Gene felt he came into this game with a winning postion so . . . he has chosen his terms of engagement. ROBERTA, thank you so much for ordering my book!! BJ, check out Webmonkey.com for an html tutorial. Just to show how easy it is, I'll format my own next post.
Marc
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 20:17:25 (PDT)
Well, Marc, I wish you would call over the tournament director, for some cheating, some slight of hand, is going on in this game. I conceded you a pawn and you want to snatch all my pieces off the board. You wrote "I don't think that any particular idea guarantees humanistic behavior, and I wonder if you'd be willing to agree with me on this point." I responded that I was willing to concede that no particular idea would GUARANTEE humanistic behavior. Are you so desperate that from this little concession you hope to overturn my whole game? We’re far from finished. No, atheism does not automatically guarantee humanistic behavior, but I guarantee you that more humanists will be found among atheists than midst the Muslim maniacs. Will you concede me that? Are we even pawn for pawn? Don’t forget, these moves were made within the context of Soviet versus Muslim behavior and you already DID concede to me: "Of course I agree that the Soviets were civilized INSOFAR as they were motivated by Marxist humanism..." Are we even pawn for pawn? I appeal to the tournament director. (Many, many more moves to make on your additional points but we must keep these posts short.)
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 17:59:44 (PDT)
My October PM memories are some of my lowest. Very alone and getting colder. Autumn leaves. I remember lots of rain, walking with breadbags around my socks, going sloosh sloosh with each step. So desperate to wait in line for a chiropractor that I let Alexa get too cold, and panicked, thinking she was hypothermic. My drinking water freezing in my tent overnight. On a lighter note, a quartet of marchers dressed in good natured parody of Sawada, dishcloths on heads, wandering the campground thunking pot lids, chanting, "John-Paul-George-Ring-go-o-o-o-o-o-o......"
Lynn Nadeau
WA USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 16:03:37 (PDT)
Brava, Roberta for your courage in suggesting that socialism, in this critical turning point of world history, just might be a solution to the madness. If you care to pursue the grand idea on this page I will support you in every way. But I must concentrate on the course I’ve begun which is the philosophical side of the problem. You see how hard Marc is pressing me, and I have never mastered him yet in a game of chess. My time clock is running low and I have fewer friends in my corner than he does. So far only Julia, among all the people on this page, has proclaimed herself an atheist. And she did this, if you recall, about two weeks BEFORE I started this whole discussion. At the recent reunion I learned to my delight that another female Marcher on this page calls herself an agnostic but is really a "chicken atheist," as she puts it. I entreat her to come out of the closet. I received a private email from still ANOTHER female Marcher (she also attended our Reunion) saying she agreed with what I was writing when I first came out with all those early atheist rants and raves immediately after The Terror. Perhaps she too will now come forward. And I am guessing, HOPING, Roberta, that you - since you read Marx and are a socialist – may be an adherent of philosophical materialism too. (What? Are only the WOMEN atheists here? Then perhaps I should wear a kilt or skirt after all!) But let me try to figure out my next "chess" move. I have my hands full not with Marx but with MARC!
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 15:44:11 (PDT)
Good point, Roberta. It is, after all, the message...not the medium...that is important.
Bj
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 14:32:04 (PDT)
Ok. You creative folks, the problem with using HTML in the guestbook is that IF you should screw up, then I have to do the troubleshooting, which is a hassle I'm not volunteering for, as much as I love you all. So, please don't do it. Speaking of creativity, Marc book--Poetry Toolkit--just came in today. I'm already loving it! It's a guide for reading and understanding poetry.
Roberta
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 14:29:13 (PDT)
Ok. You creative folks, the problem with using HTML in the guestbook is that IF you should screw up, then I have to do the troubleshooting, which is a hassle I'm not volunteering for, as much as I love you all. So, please don't do it. Speaking of creativity, Marc book--Poetry Toolkit--just came in today. I'm already loving it! It's a guide for reading and understanding poetry.
Roberta
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 14:29:07 (PDT)
Okay then, how do you get paragraph spacing and that snazzy color stuff? All my paragraphs run together, no matter how many returns I put in.
Bj
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 14:08:54 (PDT)
Um, having gotten in trouble here myself once by leaving out a critical but tiny HTML code snippet, I'd say, don't format unless you're willing to face the correct and rightful wrath of Roberta if you screw up. Formatting is great but as someone who once turned the whole guestbook italic, it's a bit dangerous.
Love and peace to everyone... ;-)
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 13:59:04 (PDT)
oooh ooh ME! I've got the answer Shabtai!!!! (see my hand reaching for the sky ala Hermoine Granger) The answer is, they are FORMATTED. Care to do a tutorial?
Bj
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 13:55:38 (PDT)
Whoops, I left an important word out of the punchline. It should be:
God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. I made that dirt. You go get your own dirt."
Today is October 5th. On this date in 1986, Kim Hunter & I were in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, doing marcher-in-the-synagogue for Rosh Hashana. I stayed with Mark Powers & his family, whom I met the day before.
October 13th was Yom Kippur, and I was in Reading, PA with Sarah Seeds (who had a different last name back then). There was at least one other marcher with us, but I can't remember who she was. The next day Mark Powers drove in from Harrisburg to show Peace City a slide show of his trip to the USSR.
Somebody has a picture of me holding a carboard sign that says "Yom Kippur;" I was signing up marchers who wanted to be hosted in a home and attend services. If anyone knows who has that picture, I'd love to get a copy!
Trivia question: What do postings by Julia, Frank and me all have in common?
Shabtai Klein <gpmguy@pwb.com>
ANN ARBOR, MI USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 13:52:35 (PDT)
Wow, Shabtai!! So nice to see you again after all these years! :-) If you ever really miss it, I have a Model 80 complete with thermal printer upstairs in a closet... LOL I am so glad to hear that you are doing well and keeping busy.
My October Peace March memories center on having a broken ankle (which I got near the non-nuclear reactor site in Ohio) and working in Philadelphia to organize our events there in November. I think it was right around now that we confirmed Graham Nash for Election Eve... that was really exciting! I was staying with two wonderful people named Gail and Ian in South Philly and working out of the Freeze office with Ginny and Mort. I made friendships there that are still going strong. I missed the March every day though and was glad when I was finally back in camp full-time.
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 11:23:15 (PDT)
Thanks for the laugh Shabtai. That's adorable. I'm still giggling.
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 10:56:24 (PDT)
The discussion on God, the big bang, etc., reminded me of this story.
One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.
The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you; We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."
God listened very patiently, and when the man was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this? Let's say we have a man-making contest." To which the scientist replied, "Okay, great!" But, God added, "now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam." The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.
God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. I made that dirt. You go get your dirt."
Steve Shabtai Klein <gpmguy@pwb.com>
ANN ARBOR, MI USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 10:32:33 (PDT)
Oops: Joe Average band was Oct. 3rd; Carlisle gig was Oct. 8th.
Lorien <yenooc@worldnet.att.net>
SF, CA USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 10:21:15 (PDT)
Today in 1986 we were in the Allegheny Mountains. I seem to remember the trees being very beautiful with the leaves changing colors. October 2nd we were in Bedford, PA and the Joe Average Band came came out from Cleveland to play for us. The next few days I personally was grumpy because I had lost my walking shoes in Denver and still did not have a good replacement for them, but I had a nice time doing gigs with Wild Women on Oct. 6th & 9th in Carlisle and Harrisburg, so that cheered me up. On October 15th we were in Kutztown, PA. I will always remember Kutztown fondly because I got some great walking shoes there, and was very comfortable walking for the rest of the march. Anybody else have October Peace March memories to share?
Lorien <yenooc@worldnet.att.net>
SF, CA USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 10:18:22 (PDT)
Hi everybody. Thanks for remembering me Julia.
Too many topics and conversations for me to weigh in with my opinion on everything. (And I *don't* have an opinion on everything!) My life is very busy right now -- full-time job (with a 1-hour commute each way), plus school at night (two classes: Calculus & Java). And my holiday season isn't over yet. (Happy Succos to Gene, Joe, Kim, and everyone else who knows what I'm talking about! and a belated Happy New Year) It's nice to "see" you all here, and in the future I'll try to visit more often than once every 15 years. Any Ann-Arbor residents around? I'd really enjoy seeing a GPMer in person.
Steve Shabtai Klein <gpmguy@pwb.com>
ANN ARBOR, MI USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 09:26:56 (PDT)
Oh my goodness! Elizabeth, YOU ARE A GENIUS!! That is exactly what we should do! Have him/her walk in another's shoes for awhile! I love it! Speaking of loving, Bj, your post touched me greatly and I heard my heart and soul saying "Yes! This I understand!" Thank you so very much for putting your thoughts and heart out here so that others can connect and appreciate. It started my morning off with some truth which is always the best if you have no coffee around :) I'll say it again to all of you- I love you guys- with or without skirts... Peace on a Friday, dear friends.
Deanna <dconstab@hotmail.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 08:40:47 (PDT)
I sent this to a couple of y'all, but it's good enough I want to share it with all of you. This was an email sent to me. >>As to the question of what to do with Osama bin Laden: Killing him will only create a martyr. Holding him prisoner will inspire his comrades to take hostages to demand his release. Therefore, I suggest we do neither. Let the Special Forces, Seals or whatever, covertly capture him, fly him to an undisclosed hospital and have surgeons quickly perform a complete sex change operation. Then we return her to Afghanistan to live as a woman.
Elizabeth <elizabirth@aya.yale.edu>
Dallas, USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 07:55:57 (PDT)
Our local group that has been working on promoting peace and understanding since Sep 11 met again last night. We decided to call ourselves September 11 Community Forum. Everyone was pretty happy with our first gathering last Saturday and wants to continue the work. We are now planning a community day of healing for December 1 and it will include massage, dance, singing,food, talk, and art. We are also planning to bring our US Representative Mark Udall up to a town meeting. We will plan it such that he has an opportunity to listen to us as well as speak to us. We are also planning a community peace garden project. People are so motivated to act on their desire for peace and compassion that it really reminds me of you beloved sisters and brothers. May mercy and compassion enfold us all. Blessings to all our relations. Real men and real women wear kilts or skirts or pants or shorts or nothing at all!
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 07:10:51 (PDT)
Marek, I always thought your contribution on the March was to keep me in coffee and laughter! Both were much appreciated.
Elizabeth <elizabirth@aya.yale.edu>
Dallas, USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 04:08:24 (PDT)
Hi Lorien! I know and remember you, of course. Bravo, BJ! I loved what you wrote about your "religion" (so to speak). Words from the heart ring so true . . . Now, Gene. A couple of points. First of all, one of the rules of chess is that you cannot take back moves you've already made. You already conceded that atheism cannot induce people to act better, let alone save the world. If you insist on resuming that line of argument, I shall have to leave the table immediately and call over the tournament director. The moves are all on the scoresheet. Secondly, back to Frank's delightful theatre analogy. Why is it "defeatist" to think that there are things we can't know? It does NOT keep us from striving for answers, all the same, and I think that's the point. It's a great blessing that we are born into a mystery and have to seek answers to our deepest questions about existence. If we knew, for example, that there was "life after death", we wouldn't be as invested in THIS life as we otherwise must be, since this life is ALL WE KNOW WE HAVE. And anyway, why would a God necessarily build a universe in which we get to see the whole movie? Why do you assume that we humans are entitled to that? I think that's a very questionable assumption, the height of hubris in fact. No, actually, come to think of it, the very HEIGHT of hubris is to imagine that you, mere human, have the cognitive capacity to "figure out" whether or not God exists, and to conclude definitively that matter is "primary," and that thought, consciousness, and life are essentially accidents.
Marc Polonsky <marcwordsmith@sfo.com>
El Cerrito, CA USA - Friday, October 05, 2001 at 00:37:48 (PDT)
Evan, Kim, and all the others it's great to see you all on this site. Evan, let me just say that I always found myself looking up to you. We we're about the same age and I never felt prepared to participate in all that "Adult" business. Happily I learned that I had a different role to play and am happy with my contribution, But it is with respect that I think back to your contricutions to the march. Now, On to the kilts! Personally I find ilts confining fashion wise. I would, to the right event, wear a skirt, but not a kilt. Now....Interesting page that www.kilts.... Definitly not for the faint of heart! I am confused though...few of those men even had kilts on! Wasn't that the point of the site? I'm not sure if we should be pleased or frightened of Bush's restraint so far! Joe... just want to say that your thoughtful posts always make me smile. Even when you seem to be discussing the end of the world...you find the bright spot for us all to look towards. For That I thank you!! Coleen!! I Hear Ya!!! : ) Cyber Hugs appear to be the in thing, and although I hate to look like a follower, Let me send the same out to all of You. Big Cyber Hugs!
Marek <Marekp@juno.co>
Buffalo, USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 23:15:19 (PDT)
I'm sorry, Frank, I know I was too harsh and it's bothered me from the moment I posted. I just finished watching on TV "Brighton Beach Memoirs," and now I'm all mushy inside so here I am apologizing. But wait! There is no need. James and I had a few sharp words for each other on this page recently, and as he told me in a private email "What would the Peace March be without a few sharp words?" Somehow the view of life you expressed in your analogy angered me, but now hours later I am sorry.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 21:49:21 (PDT)
I just pulled out my copy of a recent biography on Marx, and there is no mention of a brother--mainly focused on the fact that Engels paid all of his bills. But I think there should be a "right to not work" movement anyway. I used to think that having kids was dangerously increasing the population, threatening the environment, etc. But what I've found is that having a little 10-month old around means I can't get anything done, except lay on the floor and play goofy games and make up silly songs, and swing Dova under the trees, and tote her around on my back. This is good! This means I'm not helping make someone else rich, and I'm not producing more "stuff" for people to consume, and I'm not seriously adding to the wastestream, as I was when I was commuting to my corporate master. BTW, Marx would approve of all this debating--he was an expert at it, though he often fell into calling his opposition awful names. Another thing I didn't know till I read this book: Marx did not "invent" Communism. This was a movement gaining ground in reaction to the pervasive push for industrialization. Here is the question I am asking myself: all these wars, partially caused by our corrupt foreign policy, are predicated on the desire to have a market economy everywhere. In the "chaos" of the market, some folks can get really, really rich, while others must necessarily be the have-nots (capitalism means there has to be winners and losers). What would having a global, planned economy, ala socialism, look like? Could it be a good thing if the goal was that everybody had a piece of the pie? Now back to those kilts....
Roberta
USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 21:35:30 (PDT)
On a particularly dark night of my soul, a number of years ago, someone who loves me was alarmed that I (at the moment) didn't care whether I woke up the next day or not. She rushed over, made me promise to call her in the morning and gave me some inspirational tapes I had to commit to listen to that night. I put the player next to my bed and began listening to Marrianne Williamson go on about God. I was reaching over to snap it off because the word God stuck in my throat as surely as Daddy or Authority, etc. I couldn't get the sound past my lips. But just as my finger reached the eject button she said something like 'You know, you can reject anything by putting a label you don't like on it...but at some point, you simply have to fall to your knees and recognize that you are not alone.' Those were, for me, magic words. I came to let go of my resistance to other people's symbology and recognized that the essence of God, for me, is love and it doesn't matter what moniker it goes by. I'm willing to accept it. I follow an earth-based faith because it makes sense to me. Nature is constant, Man is a constuct. God and Goddess may just be concepts but you know what? I don't care. It works for me because I believe it. And as simplistic as that may sound, it's good enough for me. And as long as I do no harm, I feel secure in my faith. Perhaps I'm abdicating responsibility by saying I cannot know, nor do I need to know, the 'rational' explanation for all things. As long as I can love and be loved, God exists for me.
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 21:14:00 (PDT)
I saw a piece on the Afghanistan women's resistance movement on some network news channel, maybe Fox, in Oregon last week. Take heart, it's getting coverage. Frank, loved your theatre analogy. James, let's hear your "subjective" viewpoint. Jeez, like there's an "objective" viewpoint about God! I think I can speak for both Gene and myself when I say that anyone with any thoughts about how they understand the nature of God or the universe should chime in if they want. Gene and I understand perfectly that not everyone can be so brilliantly rational as our esteemed selves.
marc
USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 18:27:05 (PDT)
Thanks for your remarks, Deanna. We are neighbors, actually – you in Oakland and me in Marin. I bet we’ll meet some day soon at a Bay Area peace demonstration. Kim, I know a guy in San Francisco who wears a kilt each and every day in rain or snow. By great coincidence his name is exactly the same as mine, but I never wore a kilt myself. I never - though now I wish I had - even put on a dress, as so many of our Marchers did in Nebraska. Anne McFarlane from New Zealand was outraged over it – she said in her book on the GPM that the men were wearing "frocks." Julia, you’ve made me very happy with two of your points: "I too have a problem with the Big Bang theory," you say. "All that stuff must have come from SOMEWHERE." Absolutely my feeling! What the hell BANGED, after all? What exploded? That something sure came from something, for NOTHING COMES FROM NOTHING. The Big Bang that came from nothing is just another way of sneaking god in by the back door. God gave out a great big FART and that was the Big Bang! Your second point on "the Taliban's bravest opponents" is very important. We know about the Web site of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA). We are sending money to them. And we saw the video on CNN. Very happy that you "infringed" upon our debate, Frank – the more the merrier. Though I must say I don’t feel you added much to "human knowledge and consciousness." You employ an elaborate analogy the purpose of which is to prove that we do not know and cannot know anything. This is a hopeless attitude, defeatist. And one cannot prove by analogy anyway. They all break down at some point, and your cumbersome analogy falls almost before it goes anywhere. Unfortunate that god did not design a world in which we could all make it to the movies on time. Marc, your last move felt awkward to me, as if you had picked up your knight in tremendous haste and overconfidence, immediately jumping all over me and failing to consider my the full import of my previous moves. I’m working on a deep combination.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 16:09:19 (PDT)
Kim -- I've never worn a kilt, but I almost wore a skirt a la Britney Spears for Halloween last year (instead I shaved the left and right portions of my head and partied as a mohawked punk). If anyone finds a rent-a-kilt Web site, I'd be happy to give one a try. Evan -- Glad to have you contributing to our rambling discourse. Always though of you as one of the wise ones of the GPM. My ex-wife never had any formal education beyond high school, but she is one of the smartest and most well-read people I know. Knowledge is out there for the grabbing, and I know you to be one with a hearty appetite for it. Gene and Marc -- Add me to the fans of your debate. To all of the above and everyone else -- I send you cyber hugs.
Bill O'Neill <boneill@cape.com>
Hyannis, MA USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 15:59:43 (PDT)
On the subject of people not feeling heard: I wish I had the time to respond to every person that I am delighted to see here, but unfortunately, I don't. I figure that's okay because I was a fairly introverted person on the GPM anyway, so most of you probably don't even remember me. If you do remember me, you may be remembering the younger, less mature person I was then, so you may remember me in a less than favorable light anyway! :) Having had the good fortune to work in the Peace March mail bus, I can attach a face to almost every marcher name, although the Silver Thread also helps. But feeling less known, plus not having had the patience at the time to stand in one more line to get my picture taken for the Silver Thread, I don't mind if people don't remember me. Ben, Bil, Marc, Karen and Jonnie Dale - I know I spoke with all of you on the March and sang with some, so it is great to say "Hi"! I would go on, but I'm sure this post is getting long... :)
Lorien <yenooc@worldnet.att.net>
SF, CA USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 11:48:26 (PDT)
Everyone is healthy and it's a boy! Kilts, definitely.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 11:31:24 (PDT)
A dear friend here in the mountains is giving birth as I write. Send love, strength, kilts. Another soul coming back to us!
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 10:34:43 (PDT)
Why yes, Kim, thanks for asking. I used to own a kilt (with a matching tam) and wore it once in a while publicly though I must admit to wearing it mostly at traditional Irish musc programs (it was a green tartan) where such things are more accepted. These days I work in a frigid office building (gotta keep those computers comfy) and would have to wear leggings or something to keep warm. And I do recall a particularly unpleasant experience leaning over a campfire for a long time with my kilt sort of hanging away from my body in the front. The kilt got flaming hot and when I straightened up I was seared on a very sensitive part of my anatomy. So wearing kilts in the traditional manner can be hazardous to your health. They should put warning labels on those things. As for the Marc/Gene/Evan debate, I'm following it with interest. I'm not participating because my own feelings on the subject are purely experiencial and therefor subjective; not rational or logical or suitable for debate. When I rejected the Christianity of my youth (also at age 13, Gene) it was not to embrace atheism but to embrace a broad, wide-open view the my actual experience of god or spirit. And that felt experience will trump any argument of the intellect, every time. As D.H.Lawrence said to Aldous Huxley when confronted by some inarguable rational principle "I believe it here, [touching his head] but I don't believe it here."[grabbing his ass]
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 10:11:29 (PDT)
Mornin' All- Thanks, Julia, for checking on that Up-kilt site. :) Darn it, isn't that always the way with these things- the imagination is MUCH better than the reality. I think most woman prefer to look at men with their clothes on :) Okay, okay... I'm REALLY digressing from the high brow talk. I will agree that lately I have gotten extremely frustrated with listening to NPR. A little goes a long way...even a half of the airtime can be okay during these times but I can't listen to 100% tragedy and terror. I can't do it. These days I listen for about an hour and half and then choose silence. Kim- how wonderful to be amongst babies! That's the joy I was thinking of too! :)
Deanna <dconstab@hotmail.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 09:50:49 (PDT)
TNH, your last post brought up quite a number of issues for me and since I committed to a dialogue with you, I want to respond. You wrote, "...my mission here is merely to stir the coals when the embers of intelligent discourse appear to be in imminent danger of fading." So you judge others from behind your several pseudonyms, when our discourse becomes too dull for you? I wonder: Is that a powerful feeling? You are obviously intelligent enough to realize how arrogant and condescending that is. Why do you want to come off that way? You wrote, "If the only way some can relate to me is by lashing out at an imagined enemy, then I can accept that as the unhappy basis of our perhaps meaningless, but inevitably joined relationship." Rather than pitying yourself, if you want to change the "unhappy basis" of your relationship to many on this guestbook, then perhaps you could express yourself with compassion and respect, instead of sniping at those you claim to love. "Lashing out at imagined enemies," describes YOUR behavior, such as when you wrote about Evan, "It appears clear that the bulk of your arguments must be conducted in the privacy of your own hermitage, long before you decide who to vent your rage on." Look in the mirror, TNH. Those words don't describe Evan at all. They describe YOU. As to your desire to "off the pig inside yourself," I wish that you would embrace your "pig" with compassion and love and gentleness rather than trying to kill it. Killing a part of yourself will not make you free but will rather make you less than whole. You use words as weapons on this page, and in your "hermitage" you probably turn them against yourself too. TNH, I will continue to read and respond to your posts, yet I hope you see fit to stop making digs and snipes at folks that I love. Your effect on this guestbook has been to make it less friendly and less safe for many people, including yourself.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 07:14:45 (PDT)
Julia -- Larry King just did a lengthy interview with one of the spokespersons for RAWA (Revolutionary Association of Women in Afghanistan), this week. The woman had to be interviewed with her back to the camera, as her life is in jeopardy for defying the Taliban. RAWA is actively organizing resistance, now, inside Afghanistan. Apart from this particular example of widely diseminated coverage, I have yet to see any other examples. My bet is, though, that they will quickly follow, as Larry King often seems to lead the way to more in-depth reportage.
Also, I just wanted to point out that Coleen's sense that she often 'speaks' here, but nobody 'hears' (i.e. 'responds') is probably something we have all experienced on these pages. Certainly, Lisa Temple's recent contribution is an excellent example of this phenomenon (HI, LISA! Glad to see you connecting with us again. Don't think for a moment that your thoughts, feelings, and confusion regarding 9-11 are not shared by many of us here. Personally, I was devastated by the loss of firefighters and police officers in those calamitous minutes. Stay connected. We're all going to work this thing through and emerge stronger than ever.)
Marc, Gene, and Evan -- Not to infringe upon your debate, but let me throw my own take on 'human knowledge and consciousness' on the fire: About an hour after the movie started, we (Humanity) entered the darkened theater and took our seats. We knew nothing whatsoever of the story line or plot, until that moment we arrived. As the movie progresses, we watch, and our minds grapple with the flood of information before us, as each of us begins to concoct an analysis that might explain what had occurred in the movie prior to our arrival.
After watching for a few moments, we all leave the theater and compare our thoughts on what the movie was about, what the origin of the action we observed was, and what the likely ending will be. Some of us being characteristically less flexible and open to outside input than others (i.e. more dominant), will argue and try to persuade, or even intimidate, the rest of the group into accepting our analyses. Over time, the more radical and unsupported interpretations presented to the group will be pushed aside and ultimately discarded -- or held to be true by only a very few fringy "true believers" -- and the more commonly shared interpretations will coalesce into our overall explanation of life. As time passes, and with enough agreement and reiteration, this latter interpretation will be sanctified as our 'religion', and it will become the foundation and justification for all our subsequent actions, until such time as it is displaced by a newer, more contemporary, but still hopelessly inadequate interpretation of the original movie.
Fact is -- we don't know the beginning, we don't know the end, and we're not even sure if our interpretation of the meager few minutes we've witnessed is anywhere near accurate. We may speculate about "who or what" created the movie in the first place, but it is only speculation and subject to frequent re-examination. Only the universally shared human characteristic of arrogance allows us to suppose, for even a moment, that our explanations and rationalizations, detailed and encompassing as they may be, are correct and sufficient enough, in and of themselves, to explain or justify even our most irresponsible and anti-connective actions.
Shakespeare, God??? Forsooth!!! Hyperbole doth not a saviour make. Indeed, no thing doth a saviour make that would a man's responsibility to all that is relieve. (8^>?
Frank Holmgren <peacegeek@hotmail.com>
Minneapolis, MN USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 04:54:11 (PDT)
Quick review: www.up-kilt.com is blocked at your place of employment because it's a pretty standard porn site, with men instead of women, and with one set of photos of a guy in a kilt in rather amateur poses. I don't have a lot of experience with that kind of web site, but it didn't do much for me. The utilikilt wearers were much more exciting!
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 01:57:25 (PDT)
WOW, *KIM* long time no see, tentmate!!! So glad to hear that you are doing well and happy. Checking this page too many times a day has just become even more worthwhile! As the mom of a 20.5 month old, I know precisely the joy of 1 year old that you're talking about... some mornings I like to hang at Joanne's daycare for a while to play with the kids, they just haven't really got the whole be-fake-and-manipulate thing yet, so it's a pleasure.
Evan, my dear, only having a high school education is NO BIG DEAL. My job is supposed to require a *Master's* degree, yet after SIX interviews, I got SIX hire recommendations... with my crummy little high school diploma. It's what you make of yourself and your circumstances that matters, just like on the March. You can sit under a gear truck and bitch about the rain and mud, or you can put on a skirt and dance barefoot in a puddle (not saying that you ever did either of these things, just a metaphor). I had no idea that you didn't have a college education, and frankly, I don't give a hoot about those diplomas. So many incredibly intelligent and even revolutionary people didn't even have that... Einstein and others leap right to mind. "Argue for your limitations and they're yours". I don't mean for that to sound harsh, just wanted to show you a different perspective... so many people are SURPRISED that I don't have a degree, and I just tell them that LIFE was calling me very loudly and that I learned more through striking out on my own and trying everything than I ever could have in some state college in North Carolina (waiting for the NC-degreed folks' hate mail) :-) I haven't even listed "Education" as a heading on my resume in 10 years, and Microsoft is the only place where anyone's ever asked about it, and then only two out of six interviewers. It just doesn't matter if you can do great work, and I have seen you do great work with my own eyes!
Gene and Marc, I'm reading along but I think you might be losing me, mainly because I think you are mostly in agreement with one another but you're making a meal out of the finer points. I too have a problem with the Big Bang theory... all that stuff must have come from SOMEWHERE. It didn't just materialize... so does that mean that there was another universe before ours or what? I prefer to just avoid that whole subject because it rapidly ties my brain in knots. Plotting the day to get things done the way I want to with a minimum of toddler tantrums is hard enough for me these days!
Is anyone else getting fed up with NPR like I am? I am honestly getting tired of hearing about September 11 and Osama bin Laden every single moment of every single day. I mean, there are other pressing issues. And there are lots of related issues, like the so-called economic stimulus package they're trying to ram through Congress, the irony of Mr. Isolationist Bush leading this huge coalition, and the implications of that coalition on the future of global community, etc. etc. And here's something that will truly inspire you... Muslim women working against the Taliban -- how come they aren't getting any coverage? I'm not giving any more money to the Sept 11 relief funds, but I will be supporting these women. Care to join me?
P.S. I am going to check out that Up-kilt site! I'll let you know if it's worth getting in trouble for. LOL
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 01:51:58 (PDT)
After the charge I got from the utilikilt page, I've created a fantasy scenario of all my GPM buddies wearing them. I wish you could see how great (and comfy) you look in my mind's eye1
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Thursday, October 04, 2001 at 01:31:10 (PDT)
Kim, what on earth were you doing with so many one-year-olds? You nut. And no, I do NOT wear a kilt in my world. And that's a very personal question. What my wife and I do in the privacy of our home is OUR OWN BUSINESS.
Marc
USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 23:38:23 (PDT)
Wait a second, Gene. Your story, I welcome. But philosophically you are backsliding when you say, "I truly believe the threat from Islamic fascism is so grave that I must acquaint everyone I know with atheism." You already posted today that you conceded me "prong b" of your argument, which is that any particular idea, no matter how true or noble, can guarantee humane behavior.
Marc
USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 23:36:41 (PDT)
Though my education was Orthodox Jewish (full time Hebrew school for eight years, as you all know) by the age of twelve I began to question. I knew I no longer believed that in winter an elf called Jack Frost coated our windows with ice. Santa Claus, of course, did not come down my chimney with presents. Leprechauns and fairies, devils and angels - yes, GOD too I figured out were all imaginary beings, fabrications of our minds. At thirteen I considered myself an atheist and refused to have a "bar mitzvah." To the pleas of my rabbis and cries of my parents I screamed "Get away from me! I don’t believe in it anymore." At seventeen I joined the Navy where every week in boot camp we were marched to worship services. "One, two, company HALT!" - the compound with churches and such on all sides. "All Catholics two steps forward, HUT!" and fifty sailors moved two steps forward. "All Protestants two steps to the rear, HUT!" and fifty sailors turned smartly on their heels. Guess who the skinny kid was, pimply-faced, standing all by his lonesome? Me, the proud and poised atheist! ((By way of responding to you, Marc and Evan, I am going to try something different on this page. I will write a very long piece, but in installments. I do this because I truly believe the threat from Islamic fascism is so grave that I must acquaint everyone I know with atheism – especially my Peace March friends. If enough of you object to what I’m doing I shall desist. But this is PART ONE.))
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 23:29:30 (PDT)
Hey guys, this is all really interesting discourse, however, aside from viewing the men in utilikilts, I got to experience pure joy today. I hung out with fifteen one year olds. They wobbled into one another, tipped over there push toys, felt so pleased with themselves after climbing to the top of a three stepped bridge (some uncertain how to get down), smiled big drooly crooked smiles as the ball came rolling towards them, and plopped in my lap with hugs, storybooks, and loaded diapers. Ahhh, the simple pleasures in life! I asked my 8 year old son and his 8 year old buddy if they would ever wear kilts. "NOOOOO! NEVERRRRR!" Then my son said, "Well, those are grown up men that wear kilts." I asked him if he would wear one if he were grown up, and he said, " Well, maybe." Gene, Evan, Marc, James, Ben and all other PMGuys, would you wear a kilt in your world?
Kim Salerno Hunter <yowbao@home.com>
Oly, WA USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 23:15:32 (PDT)
Hey there Gene- first of all, I am definitely not bored with your discussions. I just can't keep up :) Also, the hijacking in India turned out to be a hoax. All are fine there. The horrible bus accident was caused by what seems to be a mentally ill man from Croatia. No ties or copy-cat situation to the 9/11 tragedy although they do think he used a box-cutter. I've learned all of this from checking in online to CNN.com and other online news agencies. Hang in there, Gene. The sky isn't falling... yet. Just it's usual insanity.
Deanna
Oakland, CA USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 18:49:51 (PDT)
Wow, This is so beautiful! I can see you, Marc and Evan, in my mind’s eye, sitting hunched over your computers, engaged in what has to be one of the most marvelous discussions on the entire World Wide Web. And it all takes place on our little Peace March page! What glorious communication! How close this brings us together though separated by space and time. Here is a miracle if you speak of a miracle. Evan, I was in awe of you on the March. You seemed to me a Lao-Tzu, a person so wise that he emerged from his mother’s womb an old man with a white beard. And yet you were so young! I’m flattered that you now return the compliment and deem me intelligent. I am sure it’s because we share a love for Shakespeare, for almost every great genius in the world – from Darwin to Lincoln, from Victor Hugo to Giuseppi Verdi revered Shakespeare above all others. Herman Melville said "If ever the messiah comes again ‘twill be in Shakespeare’s person." But to philosophy... On the Tenth Anniversary Reunion in Iowa, Ralph Vrana and I staged a debate one night around the campfire (yes, the Milky Way poured out its light on us). Only a dozen Marchers were present, but we all discussed the Big Bang. It’s an enormous subject, too much for one post here or a hundred posts. I am not backing down, Marc and Evan, though I confess your arguments give me pause. Let’s continue talking here and little by little we will find ways to make our points, hopefully without boring others. Meanwhile, the terrorist thing is getting more and more serious. A plane was hijacked today in India and the passengers, I believe, are still held hostage. A bus was hijacked today in Tennessee and the hijacker, June tells me, cut the driver’s throat with a BOX CUTTER! (I am not watching TV; you guys have me tied to the computer.) James, I am sorry I misconstrued your message and I am ashamed to admit I never heard of Marx’s brother. Do you mean Chico or Harpo?
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 18:39:38 (PDT)
...Ugh. Yes, I'm awake Marc. My eyes are glazed over, my breath has become shallow and my attempt to take notes and make a spreadsheet to keep up with the on-going intellectual discussion has failed miserably. In my feeble attempt at escapism, I have tried to surf the net for more men in kilts. They actually have a site called Up-Kilt.com that is supposed to show what men really do wear underneath said garment. Unfortunately/fortunately Schwab has blocked the site due to its adult material (which means that a lot of people at my company must have gone to the site and thus, the company blocked it…interesting!). So, basically while I am awed by all of this intellectual discourse- my navel or someone else's is enough for me to contemplate today (and who knows maybe tomorrow as well). And thanks, Marc, I'll kiss my cat for you and I'll send you back a hug:)
Deanna "Shallow Thinker" Constable
Oakland, CA USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 17:02:54 (PDT)
Ha! Evan, we posted more or less simultaneously, and expressed very similar views. I'm very honored. I hope you know that, formal education or not, I've always deeply respected your brains and discerning intelligence. I guess the main difference between my post and yours was that you were respectful enough to keep yours within one screen length.
Marc
USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 16:39:09 (PDT)
Okay, Gene, here goes: prong a. (deep breath) (and sorry, Deanna). There's a small irony contained in this phrase: "Recognition of the primacy of matter implies that it was not created but always existed." Set aside for a moment (though I'll get back to it) the "how do you KNOW that's true?" question. The word "always", in and of itself, points to the limits of human rationality. We know that "eternity" must be real, because we can't conceive of an end or beginning to time. Even if we believe in the Big Bang theory, we have to ask what came before that, and what came before that etc. etc. So "always" is a concept that the rational mind cannot truly get a grip on, even though we can say the word and we know what we mean, in a way. (Deanna, if I'm putting you to sleep, that's okay. Give your cat a kiss on the nose for me.) So to assert that matter has "always" existed is an inherently paradoxical statement. If it "always" existed, well, how did it get there? When did it start? And why? You see . . . when we try to contemplate eternity, either backwards or forwards, our rationality has to seize up and shut down at some point because our rational minds ARE NOT EQUIPPED TO CONCEIVE OR UNDERSTAND eternity. So, point #1: we exist within an unresolvable paradox: the paradox of time. So this is my "move", Gene, and this is why I'm an agnostic: Given the limits of our cognitive ability, I think the Truth is unknowable. Now, concerning this question of whether "matter" or "mind" came first, "stuff" or "consciousness", as I just pointed out, since we can't conceive of what "first" really means in this context, I think the question is moot. BUT let's look at the evidence. Okay. The only "consciousness" I've ever known is through my body. I've never experienced "mind" outside of my body. In fact, my "state of mind" is quite dependent on my "state of body." If I haven't slept, I can't think straight. One unlucky blow to the cranium, and there goes all my wordsmithing eloquence. Grim evidence indeed. But then again, this evidence doesn't really speak necessarily to the PRIMACY of matter. Rather, it speaks to the INSEPARABILITY of "mind" and "matter." After all, my body is just as affected by my mental and emotional state (fear and anxiety increase heart rate and perspiration; serenity fosters health, etc.) as my consciousness is affected by my physical state. In fact, there are those who believe that "mind" vs. "matter" is a false distinction, an illusion created by the limitations of our rational minds. After all, our bodies have a kind of self-regulating "intelligence" all their own, that our conscious minds have little or nothing to do with. So . . . I think that while it may be (possibly) accurate to say that thought is inseparable from the matter that thinks, it is not so clear that either a. thought is a "property" of matter (anymore than matter is a property of thought) or b. "reality is adequately reflected in human consciousness and the universe and its laws are knowable." In fact, I think the paradox of time alone refutes b. (Lots of a.'s and b.'s in my posts today, huh?) I'll add one more point, concerning the existence or nonexistence of "God." As I've said before, we can only conceive of a "god" within the limits of what our mind can conceive. So it's natural that most concepts of "God" (at least ones I'm familiar with; and I don't mean the Tao) would take on the character of a (hopefully) benevolent and omnipotent Father or Mother figure. But that's just a metaphor, and probably a woefully inadequate one. I don't know, Gene, if there is a God that I can talk to, that I can connect with, and who helps me, but I believe there is, though I accept that I don't KNOW there is, and I know it's not rational, but rational ain't everything. I do have a small bit of evidence. I pray for clarity often when I'm hopelessly confused, and clarity always comes, miraculously it seems. There have been one or two times I can recall when I have felt hopelessly confused about what the right course of action is to take in an ethically ambiguous situation, and I've prayed, "God or goddess of love, mercy, forgiveness, kindness, compassion, humor, and tolerance. God or goddess who desires happiness and comfort for all beings . . . IF you exist, would you please help me out here, because I am completely lost and have no idea what to do." And on those occasions, I have had an experience of giving my will over to some wiser, divine, more far-seeing consciousness, and receiving, subtly, the guidance I needed. Was it self-delusion? Who knows? Could be. But in any event it works for me, and there's my evidence.
Marc Polonsky <marcwordsmith@sfo.com>
El Cerrito, CA USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 16:34:02 (PDT)
Everyone, I am not usually a long poster. In fact, usually I’m with Ben and don’t read ‘em. If you aren’t interested in the current conversation between Gene and Mark, skip this. Gene, I can't begin to operate on your intellectual level. This is one reason I tend to not respond to your posts. But heck, I'm gonna give it a try. First, I will say that I have no education beyond high school -- a fact that has always left me embarrassed and uncomfortable. Yet, I do have a love of Shakespeare. However, I have always felt that true appreciation of Shakespeare requires performance, not reading. "The play's the thing." Shakespeare was a playwright, not an academic, and he spent his life in the company of actors, not professors. Second, you state in your quote that "Recognition of the primacy of matter implies that it was not created but always existed, that space and time are objectively existing forms of its being" But current scientific thinking supports the Big Bang theory. Part of this theory is that matter, energy, time, and space began existence with this event. That is, they did not "always exist". This supports my personal feeling that the universe is far too complicated, ancient, and vast too be knowable by human minds currently trapped on a small planet in a corner of a small galaxy. Third, I agree very much with some of your feelings about religion. I do not have faith. I don’t believe Christianity or other religions, nor do I believe astrology, tarot, crystals and such. I think they are the same thing – a human attempt to make sense of the world. But I do respect people’s right to their own faith if it gives them a model for living that respects other life. I utterly reject belief systems that seek to control or destroy those with different beliefs. Here’s the kicker, though. As an agnostic, I believe Atheism is a faith based belief system. The atheistic certainty that there is no creation or higher power of any form is, to my view, just as much an act of faith as believing in Allah or whomever. I believe it is another human attempt to understand what we cannot currently understand. I say "currently" because I am very impressed with the human capacity to learn and grow. One of the minds I admire is that of Einstein. He believed that science and spirituality come closer together, not further apart, as we learn more. Our Universe is not chaotic and does not seem accidental to me. It has truly mysterious patterns and beautiful order. I could say more, but this post is too long already. Thanks for still being here, Gene.
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 16:13:47 (PDT)
Well, I've made a few jokes on this site that were taken seriously, I suppose its only right that I should make a serious post and have it taken as a too subtle joke. I was serious! About appreciating your post AND Marx's brother!
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 16:08:33 (PDT)
Guys, Guys please! My mind is spinning with all of this mental, verbal chess playing. I am dizzy with too much of Marx, Shakespeare and word definitions. I am just getting over one of the worst flus of my life brought on, most probably, by the recent events in the world and worry for my sister (who has missed being shipped out with the first group at her airbase. Thank goodness!). As I recover, I find I have a huge desire for beautiful music (Darryl Purpose fits that bill), laughing playing children, scampering dogs, and looking at men in utilikilts (Thanks Karen!). I find that my nature is trying desperately to reach out and connect with life in its most positive sense since death has shadowed so much of the joy in our world recently. Even NPR has become too drenched in death and fear (I guess that's what's selling). So, I guess what I'm saying is that for today my business is life- the joy, the wonder and the gift. I care not for chess or commentary about doom. Let me, just for today, sit with my cat and enjoy the happiness and contentment of her sweet purr and my own breath. I've come to love all of you- you've brought thought and eloquence into my life. I'll say it- all of you have the checkmate and I still win. :) Peace, joy and thanks go to you all-
Deanna "Cough Cough" Constable <dconstab@hotmail.com>
Oakland, CA USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 15:57:29 (PDT)
Yes, Marc, we are getting close to agreement. When you say "I don't think that any particular idea guarantees humanistic behavior," I must agree with you. "We know that there have been atheistic psychopaths as well as religious ones." Too true! "We know that there have been inspired religious visionaries (King, Ghandi) as well as atheistic ones (Marx and others)." Absolutely. I concede you "prong b." But I can’t wait for your next move on "prong a." You are a much better chess player than I, and have won every game we’ve played. But in THIS game I’m sure I can checkmate you. As for you, James, I confess your humor is too subtle for me. I can’t even respond for you have stalemated me.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 15:12:11 (PDT)
Gene, thank you for the clear and erudite explanation. The wealth of information in your post leads me to believe that maybe you can answer a question I've had for a long time, whether or not Marx had a brother who led a small political movement of his own (the name of which I can't remember) which revolved around the "right to not work". I'm very curious about how he justifies his premise, assuming he ever existed. Was he just the loafer brother rationalizing his laziness?
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 14:37:33 (PDT)
Gene, thank you for that thoughtful, provocative, intelligent post. I enjoyed it immensely! In some ways, I think we may be edging toward some ground of agreement in our little debate (though you can let me know if I'm wrong). Of course I agree that the Soviets were civilized INSOFAR as they were motivated by Marxist humanism, but that word "insofar" is a big qualifier. I don't think Marxist humanism is what motivated them to annex Czechoslavakia and Poland. For that matter, I imagine Marx would have turned in his grave to think that his words were the justification for the deeds and policies of the Soviet Union under Kruscheve, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko . . . never even mind Stalin! But enough of this; I might be beating a dead horse at this point, and it isn't altogether fair to put you in the position of defending the Soviet Union, since that isn't the main thrust of what you're saying at all. But the point I'm trying to make is that it's very easy for a good idea to go wrong--it's all in how it gets interpreted. Even if Marx was a genius, and even if atheism is a "correct" philosophy, I don't think that any particular idea guarantees humanistic behavior, and I wonder if you'd be willing to agree with me on this point. We know that there have been atheistic psychopaths as well as religious ones. We know that there have been inspired religious visionaries (King, Ghandi) as well as atheistic ones (Marx and others). I see your "argument" about atheism as 2-pronged: a. Atheism is "correct," and b. Being a "correct" philosophy, atheism induces better behavior from people than religion. So in this post, I'm challenging prong b. I'll get to prong a. later today. I'm afraid this post is too long already. Again, I loved your last post.
Marc Polonsky <marcwordsmith@sfo.com>
El Cerrito, CA USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 14:33:00 (PDT)
Yes, Marc, I DO believe the Soviets, insofar as they acted out of Marxist Humanism, were infinitely more civilized than the Muslims, motivated by religious fascism. As to my case for atheism, it is hardly narrow. It is as boundless as the countless galaxies spiraling in infinite space. My case for atheism reaches far, far back before the Soviet Union and Communism; it goes all the way back to ancient Greece, to the great MATERIALIST philosophers. Marx got his materialism from the Greeks: the title of Marx’s doctoral dissertation was "On the Difference in the Philosophy of Democritus and Epicurus." Here is how the Great Soviet Encyclopedia defines materialism: "One of the two main trends in philosophy, resolving the basic question of philosophy in favor of the primacy of matter, nature, being, the physical, and the objective, and regarding mind or thought as a property of matter. Materialism stands in contrast to idealism which takes spirit, idea, mind, thought, the psychic, and the subjective as its point of departure. Recognition of the primacy of matter implies that it was not created but always existed, that space and time are objectively existing forms of its being, that thought is inseparable from matter that thinks, and that the unity of the world consists in its materiality. In answering the second aspect of the basic question of philosophy - whether the world is knowable - materialism holds that reality is adequately reflected in human consciousness and that the universe and its laws are knowable." I’m sorry I did not respond to your points on miracles – I did not reply to Elizabeth either, and she quoted a lovely passage from "Romeo and Juliet." (Marx, by the way adored Shakespeare and his "Das Kapital" contains many, many references to the plays and sonnets. Busy as Marx was – sitting for twenty-seven years in the Reading Room of the British Museum at work on his major opus, corresponding with people all over the world, organizing societies of workers – still he made time to READ ALL THIRTY-SEVEN PLAYS OF SHAKESPEARE EVERY YEAR OF HIS LIFE. Marx’s daughter Eleanor wrote that "Growing up in our house (she had two sisters) with Karl Marx our father, Shakespeare was our god. He was never out of our hands or off our lips." Eleanor became a Shakespearean actress.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 12:30:48 (PDT)
OH MY, those utilikilts are HOT!!! Almost as stirring as Sam Kelley in my wrap-around skirt!! Phew-ee, I am flustered. I especially like the workman's model, all those loops, snaps, and pockets... yum... though the tie-dye one would blend in best in our community. What a visual treat, though they need more shots of muscle-bound women in utilikilts, in my opinion.
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 09:09:10 (PDT)
Words don't really convey what I feel about recent events. Enough is being said without me. But I can say that the utilkilts look smashing! Karen they say they are only for Men, though--we'd have to fudge in the sizing to order women's. Manly men indeed. And our manly men were ahead of the curve back in 1986, I must say. As a daughter of a Scott, of course I want to know: What are they wearing under there anyway? I do remember at the fashion show in Cedar Rapids, I believe, the answer was "Not much."
Roberta
USA - Wednesday, October 03, 2001 at 01:10:44 (PDT)
On the Lighter Side: a little GPM clothing news. Check out this website guys -- it reminded me of our "dress up day" www.utilikilts.com Also -- remember the chameleons? Those wonderful cotton clothes -- "but wait! it's a poncho! now it's a cape! now it's a sundress! pull here and it's a shirt!" We can get a sizeable discount if we order 12 at once. Anybody in with me? email me!
karen <ktracy@dnaco.net>
OH USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 23:52:49 (PDT)
Yew westurn fellers shuurre dew talk about da funnee tings! Up here, in Minnesnowta, we "bait" da hooks, an' when wee'rre all done takin' dem crappies an' walleyes an' norderns an' sunnies outa da lake, well den we "de-bait" da hooks, dontcha know? I wass talkin' ta my gud buddy Rudy about all diss udder kinda baitin' you wass argyewin' about an' we bowt agreed dat, ass far ass red-baitin' goess anywayss, it's ushually better ta yewss green or brown bait 'cuss a fish don't see too menny a dose red colored insecks in dere daily dyet. Jus' tought chewd wanna know dat, by golly! (8^>?
Knarf <peacegeek@hotmail.com>
Minnehopefulness, MN USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 23:05:25 (PDT)
P.S. Gene, again in the spirit of discourse and friendly debate, I was a little disappointed that you didn't respond at all to the points I made (or tried to make anyway) regarding miracles, in an earlier post.
Marc Polonsky <marcwordsmith@sfo.com>
El Cerrito, CA USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 22:09:30 (PDT)
Gene, I didn't mean to bait you. I enjoy debating, not baiting. It seemed to me that you were comparing the Soviet Union favorably to the Islamic terrorists. And I thought, all right, so they didn't have suicide bombers, but they were still a terribly oppressive, imperialist totalitarian regime. I don't equate the Soviet Union with all atheists, or even with all Communists. As far as I'm concerned, you can still be a proud atheist AND a Communist while deploring the old Soviet Union. But in your post, it seemed, you were implying that they were not so bad after all. Honestly, was your point simply that, being atheists, they don't believe in heaven so they didn't engage in suicide missions? And that therefore, by virtue of their atheism, they were a bit more civilized? That's a pretty narrow case for atheism, isn't it? Again, I ask, what WAS your point?
Marc
USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 21:59:58 (PDT)
My dear friend Marc, don’t you see the method you are employing? You consistently attempt to back me into a corner, to ensnare me in a trap. More precisely, you BAIT me, just as you would tie a bear to a tree and set vicious dogs on the beast. The bear is considered a malicious and dangerous brute deserving any assault. In a similar fashion, vicious people who hate Jews engage in Jew-baiting. What you are doing to me is red-baiting. Apparently in your mind Communism or the Soviet Union is the vicious bear or hateful Jew and you take for granted all others share your view. Therefore, if you can get me to defend Communism or the Soviet Union you will have called universal opprobrium on my head. You will shame me so that I will be unable to reply. Am I wrong? Is this not your technique?
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 19:42:17 (PDT)
Here comes a palidrome: 10/02, 2001. The next one won't be for a WAY long time. Yeah, I was brief, must've been the full moon.
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@aol.com>
back to the woods, OR USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 18:58:18 (PDT)
So Gene, your point is . . .? The Soviet Union wasn't really that bad? What? (You're still preaching; I'm still debating.)
Marc
USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 18:53:55 (PDT)
And we know thats not just the codeine talkin'.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 15:43:10 (PDT)
They did a root canal on me today, a long laborious ordeal. An hour and a half in the dentist’s chair! And what did I do in all that time to comfort my mind? I thought over and over of all you beautiful Peace March folk. I love you guys and I won’t stop posting. But also I can’t stop preaching. They say that after this unspeakable horror IRONY is dead. Well, here’s a supreme irony: In the entire half-century of venomous cold war with that "evil empire," the Soviet Union – those red monsters who ate their babies for breakfast, those atheistic godless Communists – not once in all that belligerent time did they send a suicide bomber against us. It took “religious” people to give us that blessing.
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 13:54:31 (PDT)
Hi Gene, please don't go. I love hearing what you have to say, and here comes some blasphemy, I can't *stand* Shakespeare. I'm well-read, a thinker, and yet I've never been able to wrap my brain around him at all. Somehow reading stuff in Middle and Old English is more comprehensible to me than his language. Hope you won't shun me now. Reading your journals made me want to give him another chance. So there, you've made a contribution. Don't worry about screwing up your entry, I screwed up the whole dang guestbook and caused Roberta some extra strain and work (and I'm still embarrassed about that).
Evan, you and Ben should compare notes. He's been doing non-profit work most of the time since the March and can probably relate on the burn-out score. I worked in the national office of WILPF until 1991 when I burned out and moved to the corporate world, spending time at about 10 different companies now. Can't get much more evil than Microsoft :-) where I've been for 3.5 years, but it's got its own burn-out and rewards too and believe it or not, just like the non-profit world, most people who work there really are trying to make the world a better place. Took me a while to see that, and then once I saw it, to take it seriously.
I tell myself that I've hardly been affected by everything that's happened but then I think about how cranky, jumpy, and hungry for news that I am, and about the crazy chemical weapon nightmares I've been having, and have to face the fact that it's upset me quite a bit. I can't stand the idea of going to war. I can't bear to think of my cousins and other kids his age going to Afghanistan or anywhere else and killing other mothers' children. I think about all the kids starving in Afghanistan and then look at my 20.5 month old daughter and can hardly stand to think about it... what would I do if Joanne were starving? Move heaven and earth (says the atheist) to try to fix it and if I couldn't, well, I can't imagine the depths of that grief. How do people manage to suck their emotions back out of this war stuff? That's really what it's about... killing other people's children, parents, lovers, friends, not faceless numbers or even just city names as if nobody lived there.
I'm rambling now and need to get to the gym, but I guess my point is that it's never so simple. It's not "us" and "them". Osama bin Laden and his crew might be a bunch of religious fundamentalists who are completely rabid about some things (and wrong in our eyes), but I've been pretty seriously convinced that *I* was right about a number of things in my time, too, nuclear weapons being one of them. Did I kill people over it? No, of course not, and I guess that's the crucial difference.
Now for some levity... or a plea. Does anyone have Wild Wimmin or Collective Vision tapes from the GPM? Mine have all been toasted by time and circumstances. I sure would love copies of that music and would pay for them of course. Please email me!
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 11:30:37 (PDT)
Change of subject time! Let's all write a letter to support pagans's rights in prison, especially if you know anyone who uses the labels pagan or wiccan. It starts the path towards state recognition of a spiritual path that honors the earth. Thanks, ann ACTION ALERT Lady Liberty League >From Patrick McCollum I will be appearing as an expert witness in a court case where the government will be determining what will be considered as legally recognized faith tenants and or practices for Wicca / Paganism. This case will not preclude future litigants from adding additional practices or tenets in future court cases, but it will establish what will be legally recognized by governmental institutions as acceptable practices. I am not including items already accepted by the State, only those which are currently contested. Items currently contested as necessary and or legally recognized practices for Wiccans / Pagans by State officials include the following: 1)The need to celebrate or participate in ritual for the 8 major sabbats. (They say we do not need to participate in or acknowledge these sacred holidays) 2)The need to meet for study and/or to pass on oral or written religious traditions. (to meet in circle with others) 3) The need to celebrate new moons, full moons, or rights of passage. 4) The requirement for sacred space, land, or a designated space to do ritual in. 5) The need for any specific ritual tools or other religious items including: altars, pentacles, representations of Gods or Goddesses, herbs, oils, incenses, candles, chalices, wands, tarot cards, book of shadows, crystals, stones, natural objects, runes, etc. 6) The State also says that no Wiccans practice Vegetarianism or Veganism as part of their personal religious practice and that Wiccans may not abstain from eating meat while in government institutions or service, for religious reasons. There are a few other issues in contest, but these are the main ones being reviewed by the court. It is critically important to recognize that while many of us are from different and diverse traditions, with different requirements and different ideas about what is important and necessary to practice our religion, that a ruling by the court specifically stating that these are not tenets of our religion, will adversely affect each and every one of us. This ruling will be used in the future as a test in determining government recognized Pagan holidays (days you can legally take off of work), allowable practices in Pagan after school clubs, rights granted to prisoners, practices allowed in hospitals and hospices, and allowable practices in the military, etc. I need letters directed to the court verifying that in fact, these contested practices are fundamental basic religious tenets of Wicca and Paganism, to present as evidence on our behalf. This will be a land mark case so please do your part. Please use your own Wording and if you have a letterhead, please make use of it. Also include any coven or organization affiliation you may have, or if you are solitary, say so. At the end of your letter, you should include a statement as follows: I, (name) certify that if I were to appear in a court of law, the foregoing would be my truthful testimony under oath. Sign and date the letter and mail it to: Patrick M. McCollum 550 Center St. PMB 133 Moraga, CA. 94556
ann
Oh USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 11:17:15 (PDT)
Gene, a final comment (from me) on the definitions of miracle. I turn to the Bard. "What's Montague [miracle]? It is nor hand, nor foot, nor arm nor face, nor any other part belonging to a man. O, be some other name! What's in a name? that which we call rose, by any other name would smell as sweet; so Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'ed retain the dear perfection which he owes without that title:" . . . and Capulet would have a very definition of Romeo than Mongague. But what richness would have been lost if they had agreed.
Elizabeth
Dallas, USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 10:45:25 (PDT)
Hello everyone; wow, so many people on the message board, it's great! On "60 Minutes" last Sunday, Andy Rooney spoke on a subject dear to my heart: train travel, and the lack of support for trains in the United States. Amtrak is scheduled to lose all government funding by 2003! If anyone feels moved to write to congress in advocacy of continued (and increased) government funding of Amtrak, I would be very happy. Sorry I don't have more details right now, I just wanted to put the idea out there and not procrastinate about it. Great to read all of the posts, wish I had time to respond to them all!
Lorien <yenooc@worldnet.att.net>
San Francisco, CA USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 10:15:53 (PDT)
I have been reading your postings over the last few weeks and appreciate the attempts at community you all are making. I agree with many of you who have discussed the individual process each of us is experiencing as we go though the tramau of this whole time. I must admit, I have found it much more diffuicult to embrace non-violent response in the wake of this assault. I go through phases of emotion and analysis - first shock, then grief, anger, back to grief, anger, and now a bit numb. I think it is difficult to analyse the situation while I am in the middle of various emotional responses. Nox has been a firefighter and paramedic for many years now and the reality of 300 firefighters crushed has been one that has affected our whole family. That is not to say that the firefighters deathes are any more tragic than the others. It is just a peculiar handle on which my anxieties rest. Chloe mentioned a few times how glad she is that Nox wasn't working. (We just moved to Ithaca and he hasn't started up at a new job yet - Even though obviously even if he was working it wouldn't have been in NYC - but it seems to me an expression of her anxiety and attempt to process the unprocessable). So, I have no real insight to offer, but as I have been lurking I thought I might let my presence be known. And also express my inability to form an emotional and intellectual response to this tragedy. I have a part of me that does want our country to rage like a teenage boy and attack the heart of those who attacked us. At the same time, I shudder when I think of this tragedy serving as an excuse for the erosion of our civil liberties and the escalation of US agression around the world. And as more time passes I try and 'get on with it' while at the same time honoring the reality of what has occured. Anyway, that is a little of my own confusion. I hope my war mongering proclivities aren't too much for this group. And the expression of confusion in the face of this resonates with atleast some. Lisa Temple (of Lisa, Nox and Dylan (14) and Chloe (9))
lisa <et62@cornell.edu>
ithaca, ny USA - Tuesday, October 02, 2001 at 08:54:22 (PDT)
Thank you, Gene.
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 23:29:46 (PDT)
Well folks, I apologize. Of course I could never withdraw from this loving family. Sorry that I'm the baby in the family. To all who sent their love on this page and by private email I thank you with all my heart.
Gene
USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 23:12:47 (PDT)
Hey Bil, can I ask for clarification of "We must have patience with Bj, Joe, and the like."? What does "the like" mean and what patience is required?
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 21:34:45 (PDT)
Gene, I DO have great affection for you and I trust whatever decision you make will be the right one for you, but I would caution...the impact of the attacks on each of our emotional wellbeings is even greater than we can imagine and making major decision (like cutting off a support system) might not be in our best interest. Depression, anxiety, rage, physical ailments, insomnia...pretty much any reaction one has now is natural, but not necessarily usual for us as individual. Our coping mechanisms are stretched to the limit...even if we believe we are not directly impacted by what is going on in the world. The ambient anxiety alone is enough to push us off our pins. Please consider your total experience here before summing it up with your feelings over the last few weeks. There is so much love...and it would be diminished without you. At the same time, recall that I took a break myself not so long ago when Frank and I had a misunderstanding. It came when I had no emotional reserves left. Thankfully, I came back to more acceptance and appreciation than I could have imagined. Hang in there, if you can, with us and with yourself in this difficult time.
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 21:32:25 (PDT)
I have to say I used to be terribly angered by TNH, his anonymity, and his postings. Today I have to admit that while his posts can be biting, I find him to be an excellent writer who brings up many ideas that give me lots to think about. I’ve become quite fond of him and agree with Richard’s (welcome Richard) view of censorship. If you don’t like him…scroll on! I also find it interesting that his name and his ideas are talked about more than anyone else’s on this page. I agree with everything everyone has said on this page about you, Evan. I remember the funny, sweet, intellectual man who showed so much kindness to me and my family (especially Jessie). I miss you and am still distraught about the way our relationship ended. I wish you peace and joy in your life. Jonnie, you stated so eloquently how I, too, feel about posting on this page. I’ve always said you could never find a more intellectual and articulate group than those we marched across this country with. I feel inadequate compared to most and it takes a lot sometimes to get up the courage to write. I’ll keep trying to get over this and will continue to strive to be more like them! I feel sad that some people feel like they are talking only to themselves on this page (including me). I’m shouting out to all of you and if you’re reading this I hope you keep coming and keep talking. Hi Judith, Kim, Sasha, Michael Brown, Lucia, Lori Michael, Carol L., Deanna, John & Sherri, Lorien, Sonia, Alexis, Tracy, Dominique, Gretchen, Alta May, Nora and anyone else I forgot. What you have to say is important and I want to hear it! Welcome Kim! How are you Julia? Are you feeling well? Gene, don’t go away. You know we all love you and this page would not be the same without you. Just because we can’t agree on a definition doesn’t mean you are not with “like-minded folks”.
Coleen Ashly <Nukebuster@aol.com>
Earth - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 21:12:01 (PDT)
I'm going to RAMBLE: I find myself coming to this site, once, two times a day when possible. I would miss Gene and everyone of the voices if each one of us did not peek in, say a word or two perhaps and "check-in". I was at a peace house dinner last evening and we were talking about WTC. I said I wondered if there were many more lives lost because there were so many visitors to the WTC that day and who would know if each one was accounted for. A dear friend responded by saying "What did you do that day?? "Didn't you "check in" with your loved ones?" And so, what I'm trying to say is that so many of us came here to these pages on 9-11, a place we call home. Each one of us different and yet united by a common experience. Gene, I knew you studied and still study Shakespeare, yet I've lived in the land of Shakespeare for 21 years and it's not until this season that I sit on the edge of my seat in the Elizabethan theatre, captivated and amazed. I used to fall asleep, not understanding, not being able to follow along. So, to get to the crux of what I'm saying, it is that not only is each one of us unique, but each moment we are changing and opening up to new ideas and thoughts. I've often thought of not writing because my writing skills are so primitive compared to our online GPM scribes for whom wit seems to flow and with whom I've often cut and pasted their musings to send to friends and family. I know I'd feel a real loss with out "checking in" and hearing each person's perspective and the dialogue that is created here. I am a hermit and live in the back woods and I appreciate each conversation that is posted. And whoever TNH is, I can remember TRYING to be invisible on the march, it never worked for me so I gave it up. We all have our reasons for doing the things we do, even if we at the time are unsure about why we are acting a certain way. What we all know to be true, is to try to do and be in a way that will not harm one another. Bj was quite correct when she stated that often email words are read differently than the original intention. But it is our conversation, our longing to understand and our love for one another that keeps us going. Oh, if but mortals we were other, or something like that!!
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@aol.com>
Shakespearerville, OR USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 19:59:00 (PDT)
Hmm . . . Gene, if you're still reading by any chance, I'd like to share my thoughts on the "miracle" question before you disappear entirely into more like-minded territory. I'm not using the dictionary, but I guess "miracle" suggests something that's, like you say, paranormal, or beyond the bounds of natural law. I agree with you that nothing is beyond the bounds of natural law, because, by definition, everything is part of nature, and nothing can happen outside of it. But not to lose my point entirely in semantics . . . here's how I see the crux of the issue. I once had a conversation with a man who asserted that EVERYTHING that happens or has happened in the entire universe is ultimately explainable, rationally explainable, if we could but quantify all of the factors and causes. My disagreement with him rested on this notion that human rationality--wonderful, incredible, blessed instrument that it is--is some kind of bottom-line foolproof mechanism for apprehending reality. Oh, this is poorly expressed. What I mean is . . . I think we're very very tiny in the scheme of things, and there's not really that much that we are capable of understanding, in proportion to "what's out there." So I think for human beings to approach the "god" or "source of Creation" question is tantamount to . . . oh, it's maybe about a million times more far-fetched than a goldfish grasping the laws of physics and theory of relativity. (although isn't it remarkable that our minds are so equipped as to even TRY to fathom "ultimate reality"?) Do you see what I mean? So . . . moving along this line of thinking, I definitely believe that there are phenomena out there that COULD NEVER be apprehended by the rational human mind, and that things happen (fairly often actually) which we could never "understand." Consider Elizabeth's last post, for example. You are not self-created, Gene.
Marc Polonsky <marcwordsmith@sfo.com>
El Cerrito, CA USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 18:49:39 (PDT)
Hi Gene, Don't you bail out on us. We must have patience with Bj, Joe, and the like. We value your perspective and desire your presence. Stay here.
BIL COLBURN
USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 17:29:26 (PDT)
Now look what I've done in my frustration and despair! I've posted a big mess which included the first draft I was working on. Never been so embarrassed, so disgusted, so... - to hell with it all. My post should have ended at "and so I close." I really will close now and for good with the way I feel.
Gene
USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 17:02:41 (PDT)
I've found it useful to read "foreign" press at this time, particularly Al-Ahram, an Egyption leftist weekly. You can get there at http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/ or click on my name below.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
La la, CA USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 16:59:38 (PDT)
Bj, you speak of “frustration” and that, it seems to me, is the key word here. We’re all so frustrated in this terrible time. Sad and apprehensive, terribly helpless and awfully FRUSTRATED! With all our many severe problems on the Peace March we were often frustrated. Some of us left the frustrating work to Bob Alei, Evan Conroy, Elizabeth Fairchild, Joe Kinczel, Bj, Julia Moseley, Bill O'Neill, Jonnie Dale Lieberman, Ben Zeman, Roberta Wilson, Lynn Nadeau and others just to mention the Marchers on THIS PAGE. While others dealt with March frustration, Rhoda Evans and I lost ourselves in Shakespeare, reading all thirty-seven of his plays across the country. I am frustrated now on this Peace March page. Frustrated that while I do like much of what TNH has to say, I do not know his identity. I feel bad that Evan did not include me in the people he thanked. I feel terribly alone on this page, a minority of one. Mostly I am frustrated that I do not see much if any of my thinking reflected on this page. I begin to wonder what I am doing here. I know I am falling into that self-pity TNH correctly warns us against. But I think I will spend more time with like-minded people on the Web and a little less time here. I do feel the love from Elizabeth, Joe, Bj, and others. I do love the GPM very much and this online community as well. But if we won’t agree that words have meaning, if “miracle” can mean anything we want it to mean, then the heart goes out of me. Joe, when we come across a phenomenon that is difficult to explain naturally, we do not make an unwarranted leap to the paranormal. That is not science, that is not logic, that is not reason. That supernatural stuff is bin Laden’s insane way, the very thing we must now oppose. And so I close. Please forgive me if I insist on the proper use of words. Too use the word “miracle” colloquial; I even say “Oh my god!” Bj, you speak of “frustration” and that, it seems to me, is the key word here. We’re all so frustrated in this terrible time. Sad and apprehensive, terribly helpless and awfully FRUSTRATED! With all our many severe problems on the Peace March we were often frustrated. Some of us left the frustrating work to Bob Alei, Evan Conroy, Elizabeth Fairchild, Joe Kinczel, Bj, Julia Moseley, Bill O'Neill, Jonnie Dale Lieberman, Ben Zeman, Roberta Wilson, Lynn Nadeau and others just to mention the Marchers on THIS PAGE. While others dealt with March frustration, Rhoda Evans and I lost ourselves in Shakespeare, reading all thirty-seven of his plays across the country. I am frustrated now on this Peace March page. Frustrated that while I do like much of what TNH has to say, I do not know his identity. I feel bad that Evan did not include me in the people he thanked. I feel terribly alone on this page, a minority of one. Mostly I am frustrated that I do not see much if any of my thinking reflected on this page. I begin to wonder what I am doing here. I know I am falling into that self-pity TNH correctly warns us against. But I think I will spend more time with like-minded people on the Web and a little less here. I do feel the love from Elizabeth, Joe, Bj, and others. I do love the GPM very much and this online community as well. But if we won’t agree that words have meaning, if “miracle” can mean anything we want it to mean, then the heart goes out of me. Joe, when we come across a phenomenon that is difficult to explain naturally, we do not make an unwarranted leap to the paranormal and the supernatural. That is not science, that is not logic, that is not reason. That supernatural shit is bin Laden’s way, the way thing we must now oppose. And so I close. Please forgive me if I insist on the proper use of words. Too use the word “miracle” colloquial; I even say “Oh my god!”
Gene <wochica@msn.com>
USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 16:56:08 (PDT)
would like notification and instructions on future DC area peace marches
Windy Crawford <winwilker@msn.com>
Arlington, va USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 16:50:33 (PDT)
Jonnie, the Christian Science Monitor does have some good articles, as does the Observer (see BJ's post for alternative news outlets). The one on why they hate us is especially good. Anyone who wants a copy - I've cut and pasted it and have it in farily readable form in MS Word. I am discussing it and several others with the kids in my Advisory class (whether they like it or not....) I've decided that we all need to be better informed about this whole mess. Speaking of news outlets, Roberta, can we get some links (starting, perhaps with BJs list) on the home page here?
Bob Alei <BAleiHi@mediaone.net>
Fresno, CA USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 16:40:43 (PDT)
Hey Richard, what kind of dress are you wearing?
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 16:16:39 (PDT)
I DON'T KNOW WHO TNH IS,BUT I SUSPECT THIS ONE IS A CLASSIC WEB TWEAKER. LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE. CENSORSHIP WON'T HELP. HOW ABOUT THIS, DON'T READ TNH ENTRIES. I MEAN WHATS NEXT. ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME I CAN'T WEAR A DRESS WHILE I'M ONLINE?
RICHARD SICKLER <MAIDUBELDEN@AOL.COM>
SAN DIEGO, CA. USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 15:35:47 (PDT)
I have no reservations about supporting Co-op America. They are doing very good work. Like many non-profits, they try to do more than their resources really allow and their people get pushed to the breaking point. I don't know how to solve what I call the "saving the world" phenomena, but it wouldn't change my endorsement of any group.
Evan Conroy <evanconroy@yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 15:19:09 (PDT)
Evan, a clarification, if you would: Concerning Co-op America, would you still support that organization? Was your negative experience there very personal or was it about the organization itself? My wife and I are members, and it was you who made me aware of Co-op America years ago. I'd be curious to know if there's a dark side. As far as I can tell on the surface, they seem to be doing good and important work.
marc
USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 14:36:29 (PDT)
Sonia, Julia, Joe, Kim, Bill, et al, Thank you for the kind words. This community has always been a great place for kindness. TNH, I don't know if I know you, since you remain anonmymous. But if your claim not to know me is true, then I've eliminated my number one suspect regarding your identity. I won't say his name, but let's say he liked to talk about benevolent dictatorship being the most effective system humanity had ever devised. I don't object to your opinions or your philosophies, TNH. In fact, I welcome a wide range of discourse here. What I object to are your personal insults directed at people whom I care about. I wonder if that's why you remain anonymous -- because it's easier to insult and hurt people without consequences. How about taking a break from the insults and just stick to the topics? Sonia, your support struck me as implying that the peace march had burned me out or been related to my hermitage. It did not and is not. My hermitage is mostly related to a plethora of setbacks in my personal life. If burnout is a factor, I'd have to point first to my eight years at Greenpeace or my four years at Co-op America. The march remains one of the most positive experiences of my life.
Evan <evanconroy@yahoo.com>
Olympia, WA USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 14:02:32 (PDT)
And I am SO glad you are in THIS life, Beej! No offense was intended, of course. In this life or any other. But especially not this one.
Sonia Cota-Robles <sonia@u.arizona.edu>
Tucson, AZ USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 13:02:10 (PDT)
Gene, If you want an example of a miracle, stop defending atheism for a minute, get up from the keyboard, and go look into the mirror. Think about your history as you have described it. Then become aware of your joy and exhuberance about life and the love you pour out on everyone around you. Attribute it all to whatever you want. To me, it's a miracle and a blessing.
Elizabeth
USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 11:48:51 (PDT)
You know Sonia, in another life, I mighta been offended by that. But not this one M'Honey! Big hug to you.
Bj
Washington , DC USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 11:42:51 (PDT)
Sounds like a good reason for the Pope to extend his trip indefinitely!
Elizabeth
Dallas, USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 11:40:07 (PDT)
Hi all. Hi Kim, my own personal Peace March hair cutter. Gene: there is not a chance on God's green earth that TNH is Sarah Seeds; Sarah may be salty and she likes us to think but she would never go out of her was to be divisive in this setting. No way. Lastly,I agree with Julia, Evan; I think of you as one of the sine qua nons of the march, one of the people without whom it wouldn't have gone off, and if it takes you this whole lifetime to get your sea legs again, you can have it as far as I'm concerned. You may even have enough good will in the kitty to get you through the next life as well. (I say this at the risk of starting a debate between Gene and Bj over reincarnation).
Sonia Cota-Robles <sonia@u.arizona.edu>
Tucson, AZ USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 11:26:03 (PDT)
I heard on the tv that Bush was waiting for the Pope to return home from his Asia travels before he did any attacking. Has the Pope returned?
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@aol.com>
Ashland, OR USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 10:20:20 (PDT)
Went to the anti-war rally here in LA (2500 people, good for LA). It felt good to be in a sizable mob of people who don't want Bush's and the medias "revenge". Best of all were the many many passing motorists flying American flags who clapped, gave the peace sign, honked and supported us. That allows me to not make assumptions about the flag wavers: they clearly do not all support a war.
james knight <jknight@intelecom.org>
Lala, CA USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 09:28:38 (PDT)
Gene, the definition of miracle in The Oxford Dictionary reads. "a remarkable and welcome event that seems impossible to explain by means of the known laws of nature and is therefore attributed to a supernatural agency." I am quite sure that you would agree with me that we do not know all the laws of nature. We can then explain events that do not conform to the current known laws of nature by maintaining our faith in the natural or the supernatural. In either case one is stating a faith. So, my dear and faithful friend, we all do believe in one or another explanation of the unknown. May mercy and compassion enfold us all.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 07:47:43 (PDT)
Evan, I can relate to the hermit's life. It is so essential to withdraw and look inward for truth. I honor that impulse in you and hope that you will continue to surface every now and then to interact with us. Peace.
Joe Kinczel <ash@igc.org>
USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 07:30:45 (PDT)
Gene, it's a few hours later and I've had a bit more sleep. I re-read my initial post, trying to figure out what might have upset you and I see the tone could have been construed as very different from the intent. That's the risk we take in electronic communication. The irony is, my initial thought was to support your non-religious view...believe it or not. Oh well, the best laid plans...
Bj
Washington , DC USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 06:53:46 (PDT)
The beloved Granny D made a terrific speech on terrorism and FDR's Four Freedoms recently. I found the text at http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11603. There is a powerful paragraph wherein she describes a achool teacher's explanation of why any other country would 'hate' us. Bj
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 03:01:41 (PDT)
Gene, What I can agree to is that we see things differently. While much about me might qualify for a ticket to the 'madhouse', I believe it is possible to be rational and still have a different persepctive. As for my right to call anything I want a miracle, respective of a dictionary schooling, why yes, I'm pretty sure I DO have that right. Might even be constitutionally protected for the moment. Forgive me for being glib in the face of what is clearly a lot of frustration on your part. I'd value the opportunity to engage in either a clarification of my view, if that would interest you...or simply hear why you disagree. What I'm not interested in is a finger-wagging lecture. As sane as I want to be, Bj
Bj
Washington, DC USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 02:58:27 (PDT)
Ah, well, then... As I have clearly stated in the past, my (self-designated) mission here is merely to stir the coals when the embers of intelligent discourse appear to be in imminent danger of fading, or when people I care about appear to be in danger of drowning in their own self-pity or suffering profound shoulder dislocations as a result of self-congratulatory excess. I only stay because I like you, whether or not the feeling is mutual. If the only way some can relate to me is by lashing out at an imagined enemy, then I can accept that as the unhappy basis of our perhaps meaningless, but inevitably joined, relationship. None of us, no matter how dedicated, owns 'PEACE', or 'TRUTH', or 'WISDOM' and I'm no more interested in worshipping at your altar than you're interested in worshipping at mine. Evan... I don't even know you, brother. Didn't know you on the GPM and I don't know you here. As far as I can recall, I've never responded directly to you because all I've ever read from you were off the wall snipes and potshots. It appears clear that the bulk of your arguments must be conducted in the privacy of your own hermitage, long before you decide who to vent your rage on. As for your sleeping bags... I do remember seeing you get up before the group and announce that you had had several of them stolen, but that you were not going to let that drive you away. As your announcement came as 'news' to me, I merely took it as just one more of the seemingly endless string of surreal experiences the GPM seemed to thrive on. I know it doesn't matter a whit to you, but I, like probably everyone else except the miscreant or provacateur who was jerking your chain, felt sorry for you that day and was glad to hear you were not going to yield to your impulse to give up and quit the march over it. I remember admiring your tenacity and commitment to our common goal, that day. Anyway, censure me if you must, folks. Simple integrity demands that I remain faithful to my own vision and values, despite whatever degree they might vary with those around me, especially those whom I consider friends and fellow travelers. An old friend of mine once wrote, "So, you say you want to see some social change here? You know there's just one way that that can be. Stop your talking-thinking-dreaming about 'Revolution'. 'Off the pig' inside yourself and you'll be free." I try to follow the advice... though life IS always struggle. Peace to us all. ;)
TNH <yeahyou@youalwayshurttheoneyoulove.org>
Bliss Falls, WA USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 02:52:35 (PDT)
Well, folks, it appears that the miracle of restraint or whatever we decide to call it is about to end soon. Here's an article written by the Observer newspaper in Britain (widely held to be credible) saying that there will be strikes against Bin Laden in Afghanistan within 48 hours. While I've known that these were coming for a while, they still raise the anxiety level for me. I would bet money that there are still terrorist cells within the US and that they will do something as big as they can after those attacks. Round 2, I guess. Let's hope that they don't get too bloodthirsty, or forget that the enemy is not Islam and innocent civilians.
Evan, I hear you on TNH. I've been living an online life since 1984 (anyone remember the Radio Shack computer, acoustic coupler modem, and AA batteries we used to communicate from the GPM to PeaceNet? Hi Shabtai!! :-) and I've learned to just ignore people who are out to make me angry. Flamers in any context are annoying and here doubly so, because this is an intentional community, and one where we should feel comfortable. But it looks like we've attracted someone who wants to sleep in the shade under the gear trucks all day, ride the workers' bus, and then bitch about the food, if you know what I mean. Had 'em then, and it's not going to be different now. And they'd steal our sleeping bags if we left them out, probably, so you're right to be pissed. On the other hand, I try to hold out hope that EVERYONE can get something from the GPM, and can give something to it, even if they're not completely enlightened, and maybe even if they're a bit antisocial. They make things more interesting, and make me feel more virtuous, anyway. Every time I felt like I wasn't walking enough because I worked in InfoComm so much, I just looked at the losers sleeping under the gear trailers (again) and felt better because at least I was helping to make things HAPPEN. Evan, you provided a lot of needed and appreciated leadership on the March, and I think it's totally reasonable for you to take time off and to turn your back on things... I think about those meetings and I know *I* wasn't always very grateful or even kind to the people trying to make things work. But 16 years later, I can honestly say, thanks. And you can borrow my sleeping bag. I'm not cold. :-)
Julia Moseley <jmoseley@microsoft.com>
Kirkland, WA USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 00:52:53 (PDT)
Was it an act of courage or was the 4th plane shot down by our own jets on command from Cheney? Just a question that I'd like to know the answer to before a decade later and a book is written about what really happened. I know it doesn't really matter, what's done is done, but I just wonder. BTW, I hear that the Christian Science Moniter has a great piece about why the US is hated. Has anyone hear read or heard about it?? Hey to all you folks who are stepping out and signing in. Hermiting is sometimes necessary in its time and so is reaching out.
Jonnie Dale Lieberman <JonnieDale@aol.com>
Ashland, OR USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 00:38:00 (PDT)
HEY EVERYBODY HOWS IT GOING? ANY BODY I KNOW LIVE IN SEATLE OR ANY WHERE IN THE GENERAL AREA. I HAVE AN UNCLE LIVES NEAR SEQUIM. I'M GOING TO VISIT HIM AND HIS WIFE THE WEEK AFTER THANKSGING. I'LL BE THERE FOR ABOUT TEN DAYS. IF YOU WANT TO GET TOGETHER E-MAIL ME AND GIVE ME YOUR PHONE NUMBER AND I'LL CALL YOU .BY THE WAY THE HOUSE IN SEQUIM AND THE SETTING ARE FABULOUS.
RICHARD SICKLER <MAIDUBELDEN@AOL.COM>
SAN DIEGO, CA USA - Monday, October 01, 2001 at 00:15:17 (PDT)
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